Morris Minor Owners Club

I laid a drive once and another time I mixed some concrete so I guess I'm a civil engineer too.

My Grandad had blue overalls - but wore them under his coat as he was a part time farmer (and a docker). His farming mates made a few comments one year as my mum had bought me GREEN wellies instead of black ones (I was only about 9yrs old at the time). Apparently that meant I was lord of the manor.

the German trained engineers (who get an extra two years at degree level) are probably rather better than ours

I hear that very often (especially fom German engineers) but so far I've yet to see a lot of difference. The German degree courses are better in principle as their standard course is what we'd call a sandwich course (i.e. it involves real world experience). In truth I think that aptitude makes the difference between a good engineer and a bad one and you find good, mediocre and bad ones in all countries.
My place won't consider graduates without experience as it's too much risk (and many place are similar) but our Uni's still churn out thousands of graduates without experience.

I think I'll ask some of the software engineers at work why they don't wear blue overalls when they are detailing requirements / coding /reviewing /running SW in simulated environments etc...

Sidney 61 - run away now - get a decent job NOT in engineering!

It's true that engineering is not high pay when compared to lawyers, doctors, bankers or even civil airline pilots etc... but for a graduate carreer it's not too different from many others. If you really want a boring thankless job, get an accountancy degree.
There's reasonable job security in engineering, as long as you keep away from manufacturing. We still manufacture in the UK but less and less as the years go by as our standard of living is so high that all the manufacture migrates abroad to low wage countries.

According to government statistical sources, the average Engineers pay is now higher than the average wage IT pay. Who would have thought that four years ago, good mechanical and manufacturing engineers are now quite hard to come by and demand premium pay rates. Which is probably why the government want to push subjects like physics in schools I guess.

I work for an American multinational. I have a team of 13 field service engineers who maintain Fire Alarms and CCTV etc, When I joined 5 years ago they were called service engineers, then it was changes to "FLSP _front line service personnel" and in the last few weeks to Technician. Same work, same pay just a different name.

In my first job in the service industry many years ago I had a team of Hygiene Operatives, they changed their title to Service Engineers, but they were still toilet cleaners!!!!!

Degree qualified Aeronautical Engineer , but never got to work in chosen industry.

Now running family buisness Manufacturing our own Glasshouses. Spend my time doing everything from designing new aluminium extrusions to welding up customers structures. Also loads of paperwork and CAD.

If you want to be an Engineer go for it. Just don't expect to work for the same company forever. To be honest no job is like that anymore.

Only thing I would say is don't try and specialise too early, get as large a spread of knowledge as you can, most jobs will provide the fine detail when you start.

Civil engineers make targets

Mechinacal engineers make weapons

Chemical engineers make munitions

Spag wrote:Civil engineers make targets

Mechinacal engineers make weapons

Chemical engineers make munitions

Are you quoting George Bush?

" Civil engineers make targets

Mechanical engineers make weapons

Chemical engineers make munitions "

Well then - I have done all three in my career, and been involved in food manufacture, and hi-tech scrap metal!!

I absolutely agree that Accountancy is boring - I come from a family of Accountants - but they make SO much more money (and work shorter hours) than Engineers! And - their skills are easily transported from one Co to another. The job security in Engineering is very poor - that's what I found the most worrying part of my career having been made 'redundant' three times, the last time joyfully leading to early retirement!

bmcecosse wrote: ..... having been made 'redundant' three times, the last time joyfully leading to early retirement!

Snap (twice)

I think Kevin's definition of the difference between Engineers and Technicians is pretty good. In my experience when working in an Engineering research department in a university a bigger question was what is the difference between an Engineer and a Scientist?

The answer to that seemed to be the that Engineer had a more practical viewpoint and the Scientist had a better understanding of the theory. Not always the case though as I have advised plenty of 'scientists' on their mathematical proofs, but it does help to be able to visualise these things in a real-world (engineering) context.

Anyhoo, I gave all that up and became a HGV driver!

Don't let them put you off though, if a career in Engineering is what you want then go for it! It's very enjoyable and rewarding. I deeply regret changing my career.

But you are still employed Cam - as long as your health holds out and you can pass the annual medical! Many Engineers are not employed. Certainly up here in Ecosseland - worthwhile engineering jobs are very very scarce, and any that are going are in 'manufacturing' (and not well paid) which is a steadily declining business.

It's not just a degree that makes you an engineer, at least, not according to the Engineering Council.

To become chartered, (it's probably changed from when I did it), you need the degree (or pass some kind of equivalent exams), directed training and then hold a responsible position for some time, submit your application, CV etc and have an interview where they grill you about technical responsibility etc..

Then you're a chartered engineer.

I got my C Eng about 9 or 10 years ago. It's a personally rewarding profession, and although I work in a different discipline now, it still helps! I did a sandwich course, which included experience, it was great, and a fab way of paying my way through uni. I graduated with less debt, 18 months experience (but without long summer hols!)

IMO being a technician is just as valid, important (and should be as valued) but takes a slightly different route.

I do believe Engineering is under rated in the UK. Not sure what we can do about that. It's a constant source of debate in the engineering mags.

Andrew

every job or career is just as important as others and equally rewarding degrees or no degrees

I qualified as a structurall engineer designing steel frame industrial buildings and am now a car mechanic!

In the car sense a technician is a modern name for a mecahnic. They fit new parts to modern cars to solve a given problem. They aren't always any good at solving old fashioned problems.

An engineer will look at a problem and come up with a solution. Very different.

Hey Cam, there is nothing wrong with being a wagon driver. How would all these engineers and technicians get there raw materials delivered and there finished goods delivered to the customer.

every job or career is just as important as others

I'm not sure anyone suggested otherwise. IIRC the debate started because of the common use of the word 'Engineer' can mean anything at all, when the actual meaning is/was/may have been specific.

As for technician - more and more jobs now require using an analytical approach, use of computers for problem solving etc.. so many of the skilled practical jobs are being classed as 'technician' roles.

superchargedfool wrote: In the car sense a technician is a modern name for a mecahnic. They fit new parts to modern cars to solve a given problem. They aren't always any good at solving old fashioned problems.

An engineer will look at a problem and come up with a solution. Very different.

Same problem here, some people ive worked with are stumped if the diagnostic machine dosnt produce an answer for them

Brown overalls means you are a pattern maker

I think you mean a smock which is a brown coat!

some people ive worked with are stumped if the diagnostic machine dosnt produce an answer for them

For vehicles?
In many cases I've seen, I can't blame them! Fault codes are limited by various rules (not always good ones) therefore the SW can't raise the codes that are needed, so the diagnostic tool doen't pinpoint the issue.
Added to that, the people using the diagnostic software need to be trained on how it works and how the vehicle system works too! That training can be good or can be poor/late/non existant...
The poor mug trying to fix the car can be left in the dark and has to resort to changing parts at random

However the SW guys can also be constrained by other issues - if their unit doesn't raise a fault code then it's less likely to be the first one changed at random, and the repair/warranty rates can be affected.

On the flip side if/when it's all done correctly and the repair technician has the right aptitude, the process becomes a dream.

Therefore when it comes to cars, vehicle systems, dealer diagnostics and dealer training, some manufacturers are far better than others, but if the vehicle system engineering was done to a good standard then it's less likely to end up back at the dealer for repair.

And after all that, Joe Bloggs buys a car because it looks nice, is priced right or has the right badge.

Hello all,

I served my time as an electrical fitter in the sixties, and got my C and G electrical technicians certificate (Broadly speaking about HNC level) We were told then that the technical world was advancing such that the gap in technical knowledge was widening between a tradesman and an engineer.
Technicians then were thought to be the answer to bridge that gap with a good theoretical knowledge and a good trade knowledge to assist tradesmen with the technical side and engineers with the practical side.

Alec