Morris Minor Owners Club

Concours entrant Although I will no longer be involved with Concours, I would be more than happy to give your car the once over CJ

chickenjohn wrote:I was thinking at one time of making a concours car from a rusty wreck, but it seems to be impossible to find the information of exactly what is judged on a car (eg visible seam welding) and what loses points.

Would it be an idea to do a feature in MM about concours? How the judging works and how to go about preparing the car from the restoration side onwards. I've seen many very shiny cars with visible welded repairs on the front inner wing / sill area which surely should be marked down for that, but if no one knows.... I know there was an article a couple of years back, but if concours is such an important part of the club scene perhaps a revisit wouldnt go amiss. Perhaps even a regular series of articles to help raise the profile and promote the activity?

As for the judging, I would have thought there were very few people with the experience required. As a professional restorer, I'd consider myself more knowledgable about whats 'right' on a Minor than most, but would have no idea on the judging front. Again, just a suggestion, but perhaps a training course on judging for applicants? Similar in a way to the 'approved valuers' that the MMOC did a few years ago.

Good suggestions Iain,

"I've seen many very shiny cars with visible welded repairs on the front inner wing / sill area which surely should be marked down for that, but if no one knows..."

This is exactly the type of info I would like to know. BTW, I read the article you mentioned a few years ago. It just said that the restorers allready knew "the knowledge" of how to re-build a car to concours spec, the right techniques and methods etc, but then did not go on to divulge those requirements in detail.

I'd like to learn 'the knowledge' as I have 1 car I'd like to return to showroom condition.

IaininTenbury wrote:

chickenjohn wrote:I was thinking at one time of making a concours car from a rusty wreck, but it seems to be impossible to find the information of exactly what is judged on a car (eg visible seam welding) and what loses points.

Would it be an idea to do a feature in MM about concours? How the judging works and how to go about preparing the car from the restoration side onwards. I've seen many very shiny cars with visible welded repairs on the front inner wing / sill area which surely should be marked down for that, but if no one knows.... I know there was an article a couple of years back, but if concours is such an important part of the club scene perhaps a revisit wouldnt go amiss. Perhaps even a regular series of articles to help raise the profile and promote the activity?

As for the judging, I would have thought there were very few people with the experience required. As a professional restorer, I'd consider myself more knowledgable about whats 'right' on a Minor than most, but would have no idea on the judging front. Again, just a suggestion, but perhaps a training course on judging for applicants? Similar in a way to the 'approved valuers' that the MMOC did a few years ago.

IaininTenbury wrote:

chickenjohn wrote:I was thinking at one time of making a concours car from a rusty wreck, but it seems to be impossible to find the information of exactly what is judged on a car (eg visible seam welding) and what loses points.

Would it be an idea to do a feature in MM about concours? How the judging works and how to go about preparing the car from the restoration side onwards. I've seen many very shiny cars with visible welded repairs on the front inner wing / sill area which surely should be marked down for that, but if no one knows.... I know there was an article a couple of years back, but if concours is such an important part of the club scene perhaps a revisit wouldnt go amiss. Perhaps even a regular series of articles to help raise the profile and promote the activity?

As for the judging, I would have thought there were very few people with the experience required. As a professional restorer, I'd consider myself more knowledgable about whats 'right' on a Minor than most, but would have no idea on the judging front. Again, just a suggestion, but perhaps a training course on judging for applicants? Similar in a way to the 'approved valuers' that the MMOC did a few years ago.

I have always been happy to explain Concours Iain, and in view of your posting am surprised that you never approached me at the NEC when you were there with your father at a time when Concours was a part of the very successful combined club stand. Perhaps you would like to take on the position as Chief Concours Judge and once again combine Concours as a part of the stand currently organised by Barrie. However in my opinion to do this successfully, and have the respect of the entrants, you do need to have competed in conours yourself and gained Grand Masters status first. It is not simpy a paperwork exercise that you can 'read up' on.

Yes, I do consider that Concours is an important part of the club scene as I am sure you are aware, and still feel that it was wrong that they were dropped from the club stand at the NEC. If it were not for the fact that Concours are apparently not wanted on the stand, I would not have felt it necessary to resign my position.

However it is my intention to write a feature on concours for MM as you suggest, and will be doing this in the near future.

Isn't this now a catch -22 or chicken and egg situation???

The new concours Judge needs to have won Grand Masters at concours him/her self in order to become the Judge. However, with no Judge currently in the MMOC how are we to have any future Grand Masters winners which may be selected for the position of the new Judge ????
I AM THE CONCOURS! ;)

I guess all the previous Grand Masters winners could be approached for the job. (sorry for the picture Judge, I could not resist!) ;-)

As I said, this is a situation that could have been avoided. However I have approached the Grand Masters Entrants, but to no avail unfortunately.

Its very sad, could have worrying implications for the future of concours in the club. Could the committee not apologise and ask you back untill the new judge can be found?

Judge wrote: I have always been happy to explain Concours Iain, and in view of your posting am surprised that you never approached me at the NEC when you were there with your father at a time when Concours was a part of the very successful combined club stand. Perhaps you would like to take on the position as Chief Concours Judge and once again combine Concours as a part of the stand currently organised by Barrie. However in my opinion to do this successfully, and have the respect of the entrants, you do need to have competed in conours yourself and gained Grand Masters status first.

As I said, I have no experience or involvement with concours simply because I have never personally owned a car of that standard, which presumably rules me out of the 'job'. On a personal front, I have a '49 saloon restoration project which I would like to get to that standard though its very early days at the moment - still collecting the 'correct' bits to do it.

Judge wrote: It is not simpy a paperwork exercise that you can 'read up' on.

I wouldnt imagine it is. I would have thought that even someone who has restored and regularly enters their car would still need more experience to judge others. Such as different paint finishes - what is most appropriate, is mint new trim better than very nice original trim for example. I would have thought that the only way to ensure consistency in judging would be to have a sort of training programme using various cars as examples so that whoever does the job in future knows exactly what they are looking at.

Judge wrote: Yes, I do consider that Concours is an important part of the club scene as I am sure you are aware, and still feel that it was wrong that they were dropped from the club stand at the NEC. If it were not for the fact that Concours are apparently not wanted on the stand, I would not have felt it necessary to resign my position.

I'm even less qualified to comment on the MMOC committee decisions than I am on judging, having been involved with neither. I can see that the NEC car show is a good venue for the concours final and I can also see the idea with the 'no car to be on the stand twice' rule, which gives everyone a chance to represent the club.
I was merely making the suggestion that increased coverage in MM, explaining how the judging system works, advice on car preparation (perhaps over a series of articles -Bodywork, interior, engine, and paint for eg) would encourage more people to have a go.

IaininTenbury wrote: As I said, I have no experience or involvement with concours simply because I have never personally owned a car of that standard, which presumably rules me out of the 'job'. On a personal front, I have a '49 saloon restoration project which I would like to get to that standard though its very early days at the moment - still collecting the 'correct' bits to do it.

At present I am aware of of quite number of early MM's being restored to a high standard, and I find this very encouraging.

IaininTenbury wrote: I wouldnt imagine it is. I would have thought that even someone who has restored and regularly enters their car would still need more experience to judge others. Such as different paint finishes - what is most appropriate, is mint new trim better than very nice original trim for example. I would have thought that the only way to ensure consistency in judging would be to have a sort of training programme using various cars as examples so that whoever does the job in future knows exactly what they are looking at.

Any new judge would naturally have to go through a full training programme if the very high standard with which MMOC Concours is credited by others in the classic car world, is to be maintained.
Originality is rated very highly in both my own, and the clubs concours rules and regulations.

IaininTenbury wrote:
I'm even less qualified to comment on the MMOC committee decisions than I am on judging, having been involved with neither. I can see that the NEC car show is a good venue for the concours final and I can also see the idea with the 'no car to be on the stand twice' rule, which gives everyone a chance to represent the club.
I was merely making the suggestion that increased coverage in MM, explaining how the judging system works, advice on car preparation (perhaps over a series of articles -Bodywork, interior, engine, and paint for eg) would encourage more people to have a go.

In fact it is my understanding that the decision to drop concours from the NEC was that of the Classic Car Show Organiser, whose branch was invited onto the clubs Concours Final stand by myself, having previously had their own stand. I have made various compromise offers to be able to return concours cars to the show, but it seems that none of these were acceptable, although I personally was not invited to the meeting in which these were discussed with the MMOC organiser. In concours everyone entering has the opportunity, within defined guidelines, to represent the club at the show. However as a final it is very difficult to operate the 'no car to be on the stand twice' rule, although at least one of my offers did incoporate this, and I must admit that I seem to remember at least one car under the present ruling, appearing more than once.

Concours judging is split into four timed categories i.e. interior, exterior, engine bay and underside, and it is my intention to write an article on each of these aspects.

I've never been involved with club business or decision making and have been quite happy over the years just to be a member on the sidelines enjoying what the club has to offer. I suppose I should get more involved really...
Anyway, I look forward to reading the articles. Some questions I'd like to see answered, may just be me but here goes, are things such as:
Nuts and bolts - are stainless, whilst being lovely rust proof nice looking things, frowned upon in concours as not being original and if so how do you go about keeping mild steel fasteners shiny?
Is it worth while me making proper MM type sills for the 49 saloon, or would anyone notice if I just bought Minor 1000 sills?
Is trying to collect a set of 5.00x14 Dunlop tyres a waste of time or should I just get new 5.20x14s? That may be answered by the virtual non availablity of the 5.00s. Got two so far!
I've been trying to collect enough original interior to make one good set for the car. It will mean some reconstruction such as making front seat bases out of material from a rear seat, but would an interior with slight patina,especially the sort of caramelly colour of an old MM interior, be marked down against an all new interior?
I could go on, but I'd better not. Just a few thoughts regarding that particular car really. But I'd imagine that I'm not the only one with those sort of questions.

I didn't even know that the MM has different sills to the 1000 and would have welded the wrong sill pieces on in good faith!
The type of questions Iain is asking are the sorts of things I'd like to know, and I suspect, many others would like to know too!

IaininTenbury wrote:I've never been involved with club business or decision making and have been quite happy over the years just to be a member on the sidelines enjoying what the club has to offer. I suppose I should get more involved really...

Perhaps Classic Car Show Organiser when Barrie steps down? (in fact a position I too would be interested in) Although I seem to recall a posting of yours on another website which seemed to indicate that you had no interest in concours (please correct me if I am wrong), with your apparent recent interest you might like to return Concours to the NEC. I would be more than happy to discuss with you on how this could be achieved.

Anyway, to your questions.

IaininTenbury wrote: Anyway, I look forward to reading the articles. Some questions I'd like to see answered, may just be me but here goes, are things such as:
Nuts and bolts - are stainless, whilst being lovely rust proof nice looking things, frowned upon in concours as not being original and if so how do you go about keeping mild steel fasteners shiny?

Stainless steel nuts and bolts, and copper brake pipes for that matter, are permitted, but taken into account when marking. When showing my own car however, where most of the nuts and bolts were of steel, as were the brake pipes, I simply oiled them between shows, and cleaned them off on the day.

IaininTenbury wrote:
Is it worth while me making proper MM type sills for the 49 saloon, or would anyone notice if I just bought Minor 1000 sills?

Naturally copies of the original aluminium, I assume we are in fact talking kick plates, type would be preferable.

IaininTenbury wrote: Is trying to collect a set of 5.00x14 Dunlop tyres a waste of time or should I just get new 5.20x14s? That may be answered by the virtual non availablity of the 5.00s. Got two so far!

Before going any further, you may like to read the following, which can be found on this website http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/

TYRES - WARNING!
Her Majesty’s Coroner for Manchester wrote toFBHVC just after the last newsletter went to pressand many will have seen this topic on our website
- it is an important matter and we urge clubs topass the warning on to their membership if theyhave not already done so.
The letter concerned an accident that took placelast year in which the driver of an H registered MG B lost his life when a rear tyre burst on the
M56. The driver was a skilled mechanic and a careful and experienced driver who was not travelling particularly fast at the time. The car
was described by police as being maintained in excellent condition. The surviving passenger said that just before the accident the driver had
commented that a ‘tyre wobble’ had developed and he was going to ‘drive through it’. The wobble went briefly, but then the tyre burst, causing the
car to spin, clip a kerb and flip over. Subsequent investigation showed that although hardly used the tyre was 25 years old. It was one
of a set of as-new tyres and wheels bought at an autojumble the previous year for use for show purposes (at the time of the incident the car was
on its way to an event at Oulton Park).
This note appeared in the Newsletter for December 2003 following a suggestion that tyre dating may become a feature of the MoT: …the
Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division at the Department for Transport [has advised us] that although most tyres already carry dates of
manufacture in their side-walls, there are no plans to implement regulations to check such dates at the annual MoT test. DfT would, of
course, change their mind if tyre failure due to age became a significant cause of accidents.
The British Rubber Manufacturers Association suggests that if a tyre is six years old and remains unused it should not be put into service. It also
suggests that in ideal conditions tyres may have a life expectancy of 10 years.
The moral of the story is not to wait for legislation, but to make sure your own tyres are in good condition, never to use undated or obviously old second hand tyres however good the tread and never to ignore a ‘tyre wobble’.

IaininTenbury wrote:
I've been trying to collect enough original interior to make one good set for the car. It will mean some reconstruction such as making front seat bases out of material from a rear seat, but would an interior with slight patina,especially the sort of caramelly colour of an old MM interior, be marked down against an all new interior?

Good original interiors attract additional marks. However it is preferable that these are original to the cars in which they are being judged.

IaininTenbury wrote:
I could go on, but I'd better not. Just a few thoughts regarding that particular car really. But I'd imagine that I'm not the only one with those sort of questions.

I did not intend to give the impression, that I'm not interested in concours. I'm interested in all aspects of Morris Minors, though obviously rather more involved with restoration these days. (I like seeing the wild customised ones too, though I've never had such a thing)

Thanks for your answers. I was actually refering to the under sill panels rather than the kickplates, though I did try to interest LMC Hadrian in doing a batch of ally kickplates some time ago, without much luck though... I've got an original lowlight tourer sharing storage space with some of my cars that I was intending to use for making a pattern of the sills from. Fortunately, the kickplates on my car are sound and should clean up ok.
Good point about the tyres. I had heard about the proposed age rule, but after reading that, I think I'll just be keeping a 5.00x14 for the spare. I do run the daily driver on crossplies, but put a set of radials on if going any distance, or speed.

IaininTenbury wrote: I do run the daily driver on crossplies,

Shame it's not a Morris Minor though.

Forgot what the signature file said - I was refering to the '64 van which I normally run with town and countrys on the back - very handy for the rural area that we live in when squeezing past other cars up verges and farm entrances is a regular occurence. I know T&Cs are ancient, which is why they get changed when going any distance... The Land Rover now has modern radials, which although not looking quite right does make it much easier to keep in one lane when at motorway speeds!

That's certainly a good point about tyres - I had an unused set of Dunlops which were only ~15 years old and one failed on me (can't remember if it was on the M20 or M40). I was lucky enough to change it after it developped a lump. If I'd not noticed or ignored the vibrations it would have given up completely.
The steel braiding on some tyres is poorly protected against corrosion. These unused tyres had sat outside (on a car) for over 10 years and the braiding had corroded away

Still no volunteers No MMOC Concours in 2008

They probably do not frequent this forum Bill. Not many concourse folk do, so maybe more in the Minor Magazines would be more fruitful for you ,or could you contact those in the top flight of concours directly, if they compete in this area then they must be aware of the judging criteria, and as such require minimal training. Either this or maybe the club will have to accept a lowering of standards temporarily until the 'right' person can be found or trained up. Or maybe you could be convinced to stay on, to save the day