Morris Minor Owners Club

I think we've already covered that -

Multiphonikks wrote: After initailly not planning to use the gearbox in my conversion I'm going to probably stick with the standard minor one as it means I can better control my power consumption and use a DC motor rather than the expensive AC ones (which aren't expensive but the controllers for them are)

- but maybe I'm wrong.

Hello Nikki,

what sort of D.C electric motor were you planning to use and how will you control the speed?

Alec

If it's to be an electric motor (AC or DC) there will be no use for a gerabox. Much too difficult. Motor directly on the diff - should be able to do 3000 rpm which will be ~ 40 mph which is about all the car will be capable of. To go any faster will need a huge motor and matching batteries !!
DC motor is usually controlled by the field strength - but of course there also ways of cutting in and out different cells from the batteries and/or series or parallel operation - thus varying the volts/amps to the motor. Old leccy subs did this - any of the good old films refer to 'grouping up/down' !!

there also ways of cutting in and out different cells from the batteries and/or series or parallel operation - thus varying the volts/amps to the motor. Old leccy subs did this - any of the good old films refer to 'grouping up/down' !!

I was channel hopping and saw some of scrapheap challenge about 3 weeks ago - they looked to be doing just that, although they drove their e-motor through the gearbox ;-)
One team used a small 4x4 as a donor vehicle and cut it to bits to remove weight.
Reduced weight will make a big difference to range around town... Regenerative braking is a good idea however far less efficient as not having to create all that kinetic energy in the first place (and needs a power controller etc..)
The Minor gearbox is not 'heavy' but it all counts and you might want to consider lookign for the lightest gearbox (and rear axle) that you can find.

If you get the opportunity to weigh the driver or passenger door, you'll start thinking of many other ways to reduce weight ;-)

which is why most of the elctric cars are made out of a light chassis and plastic body. Plastic doesn't do evil things with electricty either

Hmm... just a thought or two:

Do you have an idea of how much this electric project is going to cost? On a different post you gave a link to a website detailing various conversions, most of which cost about £4000. Surely it would be far better just to spend £500 on a rebuilt A-Series and then use the other £3500 on petrol. Even at 96p a litre or so that'll get you a lot of petrol - by my rough calculation about 28,000 miles worth! So it'll take a long time for the electric conversion to pay for itself, and that's not factoring in the cost of replacing the batteries every few years.

There are other advantages to sticking with an ordinary engine too - the range on the batteries will probably only be 40 miles at the most - seriously restricting the usefulness of the car, and your top speed is likely to be quite a bit slower than a standard Minor. Also a fuel tank can be refilled in a few minutes at any petrol station, whereas batteries take several hours to charge and mean you have to park it where there is a power point. Basically going electric will restrict how you use the car and may become very inconvenient.

Sorry for the rant and for sounding like such a kill-joy, but I just hope you've thought it through properly (I'm sure you have ). Due mainly to the charging issue I really don't think that battery-powered cars are the future.

not in our life time

aupickup wrote:not in our life time

Alexander Graham Bell once said "in the future there will be a telephone in every major city of the world"!

In my fathers life time they went from steam lorries to space shuttles.

I think electric will be the way forward if petrol prices keep going up - or more important if they go up in the USA this could happen very quickly.

I see hybrids as an alternative and may buy one soon, but the future is in battery technology or fuel cells.

No, the future is bio-fuels! Even Britain has enough farming capacity to make enough bio diesel and bio ethanol to run out nations vehicles.

The reason they don't do it is the greedy government would lose out on the HUGE tax they take on fuel

As it happens the technology in Electric Cars - even in home built ones - is moving on pretty much apace hence:

Nickel cadmium batteries ex submarine are popular!

is rather old fashioned. NiCads are cruddy batteries anyway, NiMH are apparenly popular now characterised by excellent charging properties, long life and a good power to weight ratio.

Since Nikki's probably busy (like I should be!) I can sneak in and answer a few points. The expense of the project isn't really the point, she's more interested in the challenge, and also she feels the environmental benefit of the project is great (we, it must be said, both admit you can argue that one either way ('cos I do, with her, now and then)).

She's put a lot of thought and research into the project, for those of you worried about that - and is now disturbingly up on electric cars, although still apparently a bit indesicive about how she's going to do it. But then she's got a shell to restore before she does it so can afford to be

To answer her question, I'd expect that they won't take back the gearbox as an exchange without a casing. 's why I wouldn't send that hinge back, 15 quid for a hinge isn't too bad, but not getting the tenner back on the exchange and paying to mail it, well, it'd've been a very expensive hinge. Same with the damper...

Hello all,

"I really don't think that battery-powered cars are the future."

just as well in view of the state of the U.K.'s generating capacity, any substantial increase in demand would exacerbate that problem.

Alec

chickenjohn wrote:No, the future is bio-fuels! Even Britain has enough farming capacity to make enough bio diesel and bio ethanol to run out nations vehicles.

Totally agree, though not sure we could grow enough to fuel to current levels - We now don't even grow enough food to feed ourselves...

However, environmentally biofuels should have a net impact of zero, whereas unless your electricty is provided by "green" means running an electric car is a pollution displacer rather than reducer.

Biomass can be used in existing combustion engines, reducing the carbon footprint of manufacture (a new injector pump or carb requires less resources than a new motor, control box etc). There's only one nasty battery, rather than many, and it's quite low toxicity wise. The weight of a battery pack far greater than the weight of an ICE and full tank of ethanol/ veg oil/ whatever, so less energy is required to get up to speed and the brakes also have less of a job to do slowing down again.

We have shedloads of free plant growing energy every day - It makes far more sense to me to harness that than to plug yet another power hungry appliance into a national grid that for the foreseeable will depend on dino and nuclear fuels (not least because of the plasma TV, fully mod conned kitchen, gadget hoarding nimby's who don't like the look of wind farms...).

From a "something different that's enjoyable to try" point of view an electric conversion is fine - But it's really the wrong alley to bark up environmentally and practically at this point in time, IMO

I see hybrids as an alternative and may buy one soon, but the future is in battery technology or fuel cells.

the problem with fuel cell technology is that hydrogen is not actually a net fuel source - this may be why the American government endorsed it !!! It takes as much and often more energy to produce the hydrogen than the Hydrogen produces. Therefore apart from relocating the emissions to a power plant it gives no benefit to the environment.

Bio fuels are gaining pace at the moment, mainly because of the advances made in south america where they didn't want to be so reliant on North American oil (when it starts to run out).
This has upset the applecart a little as the West preffered to ignore this technology in favour of something high tech (The west makes big money from high tech - there's no 'big money' in Farming [with the exception of genetic engineering new strains]).

As for electric cars - Electricity is a dirty energy in this country
This country has enough wind, waves, tides and occasional sun to be able to produce all our electricity in a 'carbon free' way. Needless to say, a lot of money will continue to be spent pushing nuclear power (do you get the 'high tech' running theme...).

Green is coming but don't expect any Western government to embrace it unless they run out of other options.

Anyway - I still stand by the 'weight' comment. If it was me I'd rather not make kinetic energy in the first place than have to loose 50% of it regenerating. However that's only an opinion

Multiphonikks wrote:When we took out the Gearbox from Hebe the bellhousing broke off at the top (near where the two top bolts are for location onto the engine).

Does anyone know if any minor parts places would allow me to exchange for a recon gearbox if the gearbox is broken?

As others have said, you can get it welded. I had the same problem and it cost me about a tenner to get fixed a few years back at the local welding shop. The box was still good so it was cheaper than getting another one.
I see that surcharges are about £50 on an exchange box so just compare the cost of repair today with this and the price of a secondhand unit to see which way to jump. Although it would be a shame to junk it if the rest of it is ok.....

Hello Ray,

I certainly agree with the weight philosophy but due to all the comforts that are now standard on modern cars they are extremely heavy but that is what is now expected.

The problem with harnessing the natural energies to produce all the energy needs of this country is that the relatively feeble natural sources are expensive to convert. Probably the easiest is wind but what a huge device is needed for the modest return of a couple of Megawatts.

To me the biggest cause of energy consumption is due to consumerism, we, generally, like to renew cars, electronic goods, kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms, furniture, plus frequent overseas holidays etc. The fact that we do gives employment and that is essential so how can this paradox be solved. I certainly do not know?

Alec

I certainly agree with the weight philosophy but due to all the comforts that are now standard on modern cars they are extremely heavy but that is what is now expected.

Very true - when VW made the 3L Lupo (the one that does approx 92 mpg) they had to drastically cut the weight. they also cut the rolling resistance by going to narrow tyres... and even had special ones made that gave the lowest possible rolling resistance. Cornering ability isn't fabulous but it is one of the millions of examples how fashion is the opposite of common sense (most people want wide alloys with low profile tyres which significantly reduce MPG).

As for the paradox of consumerism vs no jobs. The answer is going to take a very long discussion - prefferably with an abundance of alcohol. I've self censored the rest of my original reply as this is pure politics, not cars ;-)

Does it matter if the top part is broken off if you're going to hook it onto an electric motor? You're going to have to figure out a method of mounting the motor in the engine bay and coupling it to the gearbox. Weight-wise it'll be a lot lighter at the front so that'll be the place to mount the batteries I spoze.

Wow - what a can of worms I've opened!!! As Kate has pointed out I was busy and so haven't checked out the forum for a few days!!! (it's also why the car hasn't gone any further in the restoration )

So, why don't I answer a few of the points people have raised!

Firstly, thanks for all the offers of gearbox casing! I may take someone up on that at a later date when I have a bit more progress with the shell

While an electric car is not perhaps as capable on long distance as its combustion fuel counterparts it is much more efficient. In terms of cost I hope to be paying 1pence per mile for fuel. Imagine that!

bmcecosse wrote:If it's to be an electric motor (AC or DC) there will be no use for a gerabox. Much too difficult. Motor directly on the diff - should be able to do 3000 rpm which will be ~ 40 mph which is about all the car will be capable of. To go any faster will need a huge motor and matching batteries !!
DC motor is usually controlled by the field strength - but of course there also ways of cutting in and out different cells from the batteries and/or series or parallel operation - thus varying the volts/amps to the motor. Old leccy subs did this - any of the good old films refer to 'grouping up/down' !!

Sadly, BMC I have to disagree with you on this one. Electric car technology really has moved on substantially in the past few decades. While I could have a car with no gearbox the problem would be acceleration and control of current drain. Yes, given the original acceleration of the minor I could very easily have a direct drive AC motor with a top speed approaching 80mph without a gearbox. (I don't know where you got the 40mph figure from - using an old milk float motor or fork lift truck that sounds about right - but EVs use speically tuned motors which enable them to be used at a much higher voltage and current than the old electric veichles. (Most systems are between 120 and 380 volts!) - I'm looking into a 120 volt system with lead acid deep charge cells or (if I'm feeling flush) the same voltage but with either NiMh or Lithium Ion cells. The problem with the latter two technolgy types is that while they are lighter and have a higher energy density (literally how much power they supply per cubic inch of physical battery) they are much more expensive and only last about the same length of time as the Lead acid. So, it's a trade off: Buy heavier batteries which result in less range, or go for more expensive ones which give a much improved range and lighter finished weight.

As for the controller - I could have a very crude controller; either a simple switch or a simple bank-based switch to turn on banks to ramp up the voltage and current - but this completely destroys the batteries. The common way to control acceleration in a modern EV conversion is to use a potentiometer connected to the accelerator pedal which, in turn, acts as the controlling potentiometer for a control circuit varying the current passed to the motor. This has the advantage of keeping every battery in the pack in a similar state of charge rather than discharging them at different rates.

chrisd87 wrote:Hmm... just a thought or two:

Do you have an idea of how much this electric project is going to cost? On a different post you gave a link to a website detailing various conversions, most of which cost about £4000. Surely it would be far better just to spend £500 on a rebuilt A-Series and then use the other £3500 on petrol. Even at 96p a litre or so that'll get you a lot of petrol - by my rough calculation about 28,000 miles worth! So it'll take a long time for the electric conversion to pay for itself, and that's not factoring in the cost of replacing the batteries every few years.

There are other advantages to sticking with an ordinary engine too - the range on the batteries will probably only be 40 miles at the most - seriously restricting the usefulness of the car, and your top speed is likely to be quite a bit slower than a standard Minor. Also a fuel tank can be refilled in a few minutes at any petrol station, whereas batteries take several hours to charge and mean you have to park it where there is a power point. Basically going electric will restrict how you use the car and may become very inconvenient.

Sorry for the rant and for sounding like such a kill-joy, but I just hope you've thought it through properly (I'm sure you have ). Due mainly to the charging issue I really don't think that battery-powered cars are the future.

Chris, as pointed out the point here is a car which pollutes less and is cheaper to run. Sure, the conversion is going to cost a fair bit but we're not talking about a cheap restoration here either. Hebe is in need of a ground-up restoration.

I love the A series but the fact of the matter is that we are slowly running out of natural oils. The thought of spending over a quid on petrol really doesn't make me that happy. And people can argue at me that an electric car just transferrs the pollution elsewhere (a valid argument) but of course an electric generating power station is more efficient than a one-litre A series!

You're right about the batteries. It does figure into the cost of running an EV quite highly. However, if they are looked after and charged using a custom-built unit they should last five years. Electric motors are good for the equivalent of about 150,000 miles and provided the electric wiring is looked after and correctly installed (important otherwise I'll have a welded car where I don't want it!) it will also last a long while. In short, the servicing costs will drop quite considerably.

The top speed isn't slower though. Sure, if I use the milk-float motor it will be - but have any of you seen the average speed of a modern EV? It's about 80 mph! And that's on a conversion with a big american truck weighing in excess of 2,500lbs!


As to the inconvenience of range. You're right in part. I expect the range to be between 50 and 150 miles dependent on the battery technology I use. But for just one moment consider the use I plan for my mog:

My partner has a Honda Prelude 2.0i. It's a reasonably comfortable car and if we ever go long distances it's the one taken since she (unfortuantely) doesn't really enjoy driving the minor. For her, the Minor is a car we go driving locally in. The Honda has more power for long distance journies and, if driven carefully, can get about 43 mpg. Eventually we're hoping for a Honda Jazz hybrid for her.

Hebe, on the other hand, gets used around Bristol. She's my car. I'm based at home so don't commute to work. I do make regular short trips around town on business and my average trip is about 15 miles maximum. I occasionally go to Bath on work, but even that is within range of even the worst performing EV.

So yes, I'm aware of the limitations of range. However, I'd rather do that than blindly continue using petrol in the hope that someone will magically sort out the ever-decreasing resources. - and that's not a stab at anyone rather a statement of how I view our natural resources at present with regard to petrol.

RogerRust wrote: Alexander Graham Bell once said "in the future there will be a telephone in every major city of the world"!

In my fathers life time they went from steam lorries to space shuttles.

I think electric will be the way forward if petrol prices keep going up - or more important if they go up in the USA this could happen very quickly.

I see hybrids as an alternative and may buy one soon, but the future is in battery technology or fuel cells.

Completely Roger! The problem here is need. We, (humans) are incredibly inventive. Think of how many technologies were developed as a result of dire need- (in most cases this translates to war).

I believe that as soon as petrol REALLY starts to run dry people will have to research alternatives. For me, right now, given my requirements and resources, going electric works.

Ultimately we're hoping to have some home-engery sources such as a wind turbine and a solar panel to help keep the car's batteries up to speed.

To conclude I'd like to say that I'm not trying to flame anyone who is seemingly ant-EV. I'm just trying to show that battery technology has improved over the past few decades.

Also remember that in a car's life only about 10% of the natural resources it uses is made up from it's manufacture. The rest is from petrol and oil used to keep it going. Okay, in a minor that's more like 2% since we keep our cars on the road, but I want to change how much oil I rely on in my conversion.

Again, Perhaps anyone curious should head over to the EV album at http://www.austinev.org/

Of course, then there's the <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eE01yUYq0_M"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eE01yUYq0_M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


and....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w for the curious

Oh, and finally. Did you all know that electric cars were very popular amongst early twentieth century society ladies since they could drive without the smell and dirt associated with the early combustion engines? In fact, Electric cars were more widespread and reliable!

Also remember that in a car's life only about 10% of the natural resources it uses is made up from it's manufacture.

not a statistic I would agree with - modern car manufacture uses more energy than ever. Add a few % extra for the oil used shipping cars from asia to Europe etc...

I think I can help on this one:)

http://www.e-volks.com/about.html

There is a lot of information there that will help you convert the car to electric operation along with sound engineering advice.

These people also sell the parts needed VERY cheaply!

The basic kit with all you need is £770!

Even the top priced kit is 1/3 of some prices quoted here. Shipping from the states is very reasonable.

I'm going to use their parts to build an electric mini, which will have a top speed of 70 mph and a range of about 70 miles.

I'll be connecting mine to our solar/wind/peltier charging array so the electricity will be 100% green. Remember you can buy green elecricity, (though check the small print, much of the so called green electricity is nothing of the sort).

You will need the gearbox.

I won't go into the rest of the debate too much, but anyone who tells you that fuel cells have ANY chance of being a viable replacement for transport or electricity generation doesn't know that much about the technology or materials requirements.

Don't have enought platinum group elements in the entire earths crust to build any number of them, and they need total repalcement in cars every 2 years of a taxis milage. It's not going to happen.

Biofuels are a great idea, but only if you use waste to generate alcohol, (which we could easily do by collecting veg waste and wood chippings etc), or use SVO. Also, all land is not equal, much of the land in the UK is not suitable for engergy crops that would produce biofuels. We can't grow enough primary fuel to use in the UK. We could do it recycling as outllined above.

The american studies on hydrogen were based on producing H2 from fossil fuels, and this was politically motorvated.

In fact, the way to do this is to use renewables like wind and wave power to generate current then pass the current through water to store the energy as hydrogen. This is very effecient.

Take a look at the site, it's very useful and the parts are very cheap, especially with the current exchange rate!

It's great that people are thinking more about this, and petrol is very cheap at the moment compared to what it will be in 5 years time, so a bit of thought now is wise to be honest.

We can adapt the A series easily to run on alchohol fuel blends, we are just getting them here now, E85. (85% alcohol, 15% petrol). I'm doing this with another mini