Mechanical Fuel Pump Solution ?

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:53 pm

In recent posting there has been the usual points problems and now with the heatm fuel starvation issues

Now I know that Cam and some others have used Facet pumps to the rear of the car, but has this stopped the fuel starvation problems, I assume as they are solid state the points issue no longes applies.
Well this week I came across 3 owners at a car meet that I went to who had come up with another alternative and that was to fit a mechanical fuel pump

In the 1st case it was in a car fitted with the 1275cc Ital engine (not a problem as both this and the Marina engine were fitted with them as standard) however I then came across 2 more owners who said they had them fitted to 1098cc engines and both owners had it done a while ago but apparently not all 1098cc engines can have these fitted just that on the later produced blocks the provision for a mechanical pump exists, on sunday a few of our branch cars are on a trip to a canal museum so I will have a look at the engines to see if this is accurate, has anyone else done this?
Accoding to the owners they do not suffer from fuel starvation any more

at all and 2 of the cars have been on quite a few MOT`s through France

Post by **Cam** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:43 pm

I have only ever used the mechanical pumps on transverse A-series (mini) engines. The cam should have the provision for driving the pump, so if the block is already tapped for the mounting holes, then it should not be a problem!

You could always drill and tap the block yourself, but that would be an engine out job!

Post by **Chris Morley** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:05 am

I can't see how the type of fuel pump will affect the issue of fuel vapourisation. Surely it's cause is the fuel pipe being close to a hot manifold without much ventilation in the area?

The solid state SU pumps should eliminate any problems with the pump's points although (touch wood) mine have performed reliably over the last 4 years. I assume that daily drivers have an advantage in this respect. Has anyone on the board fitted these new (old look) SU pumps?

Post by **Kevin** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:02 am

Chris I recently got one of the points free pattern part pumps (boxed Quinten Hazel) it was all I could get at short notice, it was made in Germany and I found it was very noisy clicking all the time and it is thinner at the base without the filter section on the original design however the SU version is supposed to be fine, I went back to original type.

With the mechanical one its mounted lower in the engine bay below manifold level and the pipe is then brought up to the carb and the feed is also below manifold level, and the reinforced pipe to the carb is now fed from the front and does away with the over the carb feed so its sitting more in the air flow. This means the heat from the manifold area that would affect standard pipework does not seem to be an issue due to the new pipework positioning.

Post by **Kevin** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:46 am

I may have been led up the garden path

as regards the fitting of a mechanical pump to the 1098cc engine as all those that I have looked at do not have the provision for the pump and would involve machining as Cam says, the only ones I have seen have been on 1275cc engines from either Marina or Ital cars even the Midget engine does not have the provision, I have taken a couple of pictures ( I will ask Cam to post them for me ) of the installation on an Ital engined car which will show how the fuel evaporation problem is removed, however this will not help most owners unless they have the later 1275cc engine fitted.

Post by **h_____** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:30 pm

Never had trouble with my fuel pump (being original electric part). But have now swapped to fully braided fuel lines, I also run the pipe in a loop from the fuel pump up and then down to the carb (marina carb). These hoses are much better than the old rubber ones. And I think resist heat a lot better. Had a rubber one split on me a while ago, lost nearly 1/2 a tank of fuel over the engine bay before it was spotted . No chance of that happening now. Unless the engine is highly tuned, I am not sure there is a need to change. But happy to be corrected?

Post by **57traveller** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:45 pm

This 1098cc engine does have provision for a mechanical pump, it's sealed with a blanking plate, don't know from which car the engine originated. I don't know either if the drive cam is still in place. I suspect not and no doubt a suitable camshaft could be required.
Seems to be a heck of a lot of hassle for a modification that in the end may not make any difference.

Post by **Kevin** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:15 pm

But have now swapped to fully braided fuel lines, I also run the pipe in a loop from the fuel pump up and then down to the carb

Most cars you see at shows have their pipes run like this and with this type of hose, I wonder if the fuel starvation is only caused with the other type of pipe ?
Thanks for the picture 57 all thats needed is to remove the blanking plate and fit the pump the provision is already there on the cam see CAMS earlier posting, so it would be very easy to do on this engine.
However if those that have had problems in the heat of fuel evaporation could let us know what type and the positioning of the pipework, it might be an easy cure if braided pipe stops the problem although its the only thing used on Concours cars and might be the correct fitting in the 1st place, and the problem has been caused by aftermarket rubber pipework ?

Post by **57traveller** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:35 pm

This fuel vapourisation issue has puzzled me for ages. It doesn't seem to be a universal problem (or am I lucky?). Fortunately it has never been a factor for me with both my cars. I've recently been stuck in traffic on the M6, (two weekends ago) when it was very hot and I was dreading this happening but it didn't. Minors were exported to various places where temperatures exceed those experienced in the U.K. even lately. Was it a problem then? Surely Nuffield Exports would have come up with some form of modification if it had been an issue. Just a thought anyway. It would be interesting to come up with a common denominator, comparing fuel pipe layout, type etc. to try and figure out why it maybe doesn't happen to everone.

Post by **Cam** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:41 pm

I don't have the problem and my engine bay does get HOT! and guess what? I am using braided hose. That may well be the answer (or at least help the situation)

Post by **57traveller** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:27 pm

Yes, I'm on braided hose too (pump to carburettor) but does the vapourisation occur in that section, in the pump itself or the small section of suction pipe in the engine bay?

Post by **Kevin** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:08 pm

Calling Chris you said that you had to cool your pipework down recently which bit and do you have a braided hose, and also Paul who had similar fuel starvation problems

Post by **Chris Morley** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:27 pm

Kevin (and Cam) - I do have the traditional braided hose linking the fuel pump and carb. I guess this must get hot, but at least it's in an area where the air can circulate.

When my mog suffered fuel vapourisation I assumed that the problem area was where the copper fuel pipe comes up from the floorpan, passing within a few inches of the engine manifold. When stationary I guess there is very little air flow around the rear of the engine. That's where I trickled the water (which seemed to help).

Post by **Cam** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:46 pm

Ah, right, I have braided hose all the way from the tank to the carb, so that takes me out of the equation!

If you don't fancy replacing that copper section near to the manifold with braided hose, then a heat shield like grumpy's or one made from 1mm ish steel plate would probably do the trick.

Post by **Chris Morley** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:00 am

Or wrap about 6 inches of the copper pipe with an insulating material that doesn't absorb heat. I can think of the ideal insulating material - do you think NASA would let us have the address of the company which supplies the space shuttle tiles?

Having said that Cam, have you ever left your car in blazing sunshine (33-35 C) for nearly 8 hours?

That's the only time I've ever had this fuel starvation problem.

Post by **Cam** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:52 am

have you ever left your car in blazing sunshine (33-35 C) for nearly 8 hours?

Mine was on display at Knebworth all day on the Sunday in the blazing sunshine without any problems, but the jerry can that I was carrying full of optimax did nearly explode and cover me with fuel when I opended it up to top the car up with fuel before I left!!

I wonder if exhaust wrap insulating material would be any good? Other than that, NASA is is!

Post by **Kevin** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:15 am

I have heard of others who on fitting Grumpys kit to help the problem, have found it makes no difference I wonder if anyone on here has used one and found that it makes a difference ?

Post by **lowedb** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:21 am

It's not just 'newer' engines. My 803 has the hole for the mechanical pump, and a blanking plate.

What did the A30s have? Mine is a gold seal engine, and maybe they were available for both cars, so always had the mech pump option?

Post by **Willie** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:56 pm

KEVIN..Grumpy's kit... I fitted this kit, it seemed a good
idea and consists of a metal shield between the float bowl
and the exhaust and a metal shield over the supply pipe
to the petrol pump. it would seem feasible that these
fittings would deflect heat but since I had never actually
had any vapourisation problems I cannot say if it would
help someone who HAS had problems. I removed the kit
because one of the welds on it failed!

Post by **Cam** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:02 pm

According to my info, ALL the Minors had an electric SU pump and none had a mechanical one.

Anyway, here are the two pictures that Kevin asked me to post:

Morris Minor Owners Club

Mechanical Fuel Pump Solution ?

Mechanical Fuel Pump Solution ?

mech. fuel pump

Grumpy's