Pellets?

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Cam
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Post by Cam »

Catalysts don't actually take part in the reaction, and therfore aren't used up.
That's correct.
Hence they sit in the tank forever.
Nope, as when you run out of fuel, the tank would still contain catalysts!! They are passed through the system and exit through the exhaust which is why the pellets are used up after a while!!
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
VERY true!!!!


by the way, do you attend any local (Staffordshire) branch meetings?? I am in the Potteries branch, but I understand that there are more around this area.
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Post by lowedb »

So the pellets dissolve in the fuel. I'm quite prepared to accept that, but it wasn't my understanding. But surely if you run out of fuel, the undissolved bit's of pellet would still be in there?

I'm not claiming any sort of experience or knowledge on these things, either.

(Off Topic, sorry) Regarding the local branch, I don't attend any (yet). The Minor has been in storage for a few years, but it's recent return after being stolen has rather forced my hand, so I've only just started to get involved again. I used to attend Rugby Morris Minors, when I lived further South. It's not very different from the '52MM you have. Engine and box diffferent, but everything else the same. Hardly an SII at all!
Cam
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Post by Cam »

Yes, the pellets are good for so many thousand miles (until they dissolve). The undissolved pellets do remain in the tank, but it sounded like you said that ALL the pellet material remained in the tank?!? which is not true, they simply pass out with the combustion by-products.

Glad you are back with the Moggies, but I wish it had been under more happy circumstances!

I live in Stoke and work in Stafford, so you are not that far away from me!

I think there is a Stafford club, but if not you could go to the South Staffs or Potteries branch meeting (when you are ready!).
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Post by lowedb »

Yes, the pellets are good for so many thousand miles (until they dissolve).
According to the website, it's 250,000 miles, so I can see why I misunderstood. I'd still like to understand more about how they reckon it all works. The website seems to suggest it is modifying the fuel, rather than the combustion process. It also claims massive changes in CO and HC emssions. If it were that simple, I think that modern cars would have to fit them as standard?
Cam
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Post by Cam »

If it is modifying the fuel, then it should be affecting the combustion process slightly. But I think it's just to provide a 'lead like' material in the fuel which then coats and protects the valve seats like the old lead used to do. I don't think that they alter the burn rate (octane) at all (but I have not checked). Personally I would rather use an additive like Castrol Valvemaster plus (which I do use) as this has passed all the VSR tests unlike the pellets. It provides valve seat recession protection AND boosts the octane to a safer level to prevent detonation and pinking.

Modern cars don't need them as they have hardened valve seats machined into the head(s) and the fuelling and ignition system is designed and optimised for c r a p 95 octane unleaded fuel.
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Post by lowedb »

Modern cars don't need them as they have hardened valve seats machined into the head(s) and the fuelling and ignition system is designed and optimised for c r a p 95 octane unleaded fuel.
More than that, the fuel and ignition systems are adaptive on modern cars. Oxygen sensors (or Lambda sensors) monitor the fuelling, and knock sensors bolted to the block look for detonation. I seem to remember Montegos being the first to widely use this. Some Monty's can't cope with unleaded though, as they still don't have the hardened seats!
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Post by Cam »

Yes, that's what I meant when I said that the fuelling and ignition was optimised for this fuel. I was over simplifying as usual!!

The engines run on the edge of knocking and when detected they back the ignition timing off slightly. The fuelling is also in a constant closed loop control system which alters the mark/space ratio of the injector pulsing (pulse width modulation) based upon the output of the lambda sensor.

The thing is that these systems are all well and good, but what happens if the sensors fail? lean running and heavy pinking can be detremental in such high compression engines.
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Post by lowedb »

What happens when they fail, depends on the age of the system.

These days, the diagnostics on the sensors are pretty good, so the ECU can tell if the sensors have failed. Part of the calibration process for the engine tune includes setting operating limits. If the sensor reads outside this, a fault is logged and the check engine warning light comes on. The system then adopts a strategy that protects the engine, usually with significantly reduced power.

This has mostly been forced by the requirements to improve emissions. In the US, you can be stopped at the roadside, and a nice man will plug his tester in your car and ask the emssion related ECUs if they have any faults logged.

A few years ago, the systems weren't so clever though. Montegos and Maestros auto joke systems couldn't tell if the engine temp sensor was faulty. They just assumed it was exceptionally cold, so you got maximum enrichment. I had a Rover 820 which detected the temp sender failure (same sensor, better ECU) and assumed a hot engine. The sensor only went faulty above about 50C so when cold it was OK, and when hot the actual agreed with the assumption so again basically OK. For about 5 minutes driving in between though, the performance was always noticeably bad. No diagnostics on that ECU to help me, though.
Cam
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Post by Cam »

Have you had any experience with the ERIC SU carb and control unit on the Rover 216S? (S-series engine as fitted to the 1.6 Maestros)

The reason that I ask is that mine sometimes won't tick over and then other times it is OK (when warm and cold). It has been like that for a while and I have changed the control unit but it made no difference. I was considering changing the carb (complete with it's control systems) but if you have a quick fix it might be cheaper!!

Thanks.
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Post by lowedb »

I know that Eric replaced the separate Auto joke and ignition ECUs, but apart from that have only seen them.

However, the water temp sensor is the same part as far as I know, and therefore subject to the same problem as the earlier cars. The sensor seems to have been used on just about every Austin and Rover from A reg to at least G reg (I've personally fixed B and G reg cars with the same fault). For what the part costs, and saying how many I've come across that have failed, it's got to be worth a try. On Maestros and Montys, you could tell because the temp gauge was driven by the ECU, but I think on the 200 series it has a second sensor as the instrument pack is different. On my 800 there was no clue in the gauge, but this had the 2 litre M series engine with Lucas EFI, not the 1600 S Series.

The earlier auto joke ECU usually had an easy fix, too. I used to earn myself pints at the local pub, by taking a gas soldering iron and desolder pump, opening them up and resoldering the crystal on the main processor. The only one that this didn't fix was my own Monty: it turned out to have a crack in the printed circuit board as well as the bad joint!

Duncan
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Post by Cam »

Thanks Duncan, I'll give the temp sensor a try. If that does not cure it, have you got any other suggestion as to what it could be?
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Post by lowedb »

Afraid nothing helpful, apart from the obvious plug leads etc.

The Monty's had a engine top mounted mechanical fuel pump but I don't know the installation in the 200s. Maybe there's an electrical fuel pump, possibly in the tank. This could cause problems. Plug leads, dizzy caps, rotor arms (more likely to cause a misfire).

It's also posible the stepper motor on the carb is not working. This could be the motor or wiring / connectors. I seem to remember the ones with the separate ecu wound themselves in then out on power up, but it's so many years ago. It's possible to see the idle speed increase peg move when this happens. You could check when it's working OK, and see if it doesn't do it when you have the problem.

Apart from that you're starting to look for mechanical faults.

Just be glad you're not trying to fault find something with electronic throttles and drive by wire!
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Post by Cam »

Yes, I don't think that the idle increase peg is moving out quite when it should, maybe it is that then? does this peg move when it is hot or only when cold?

Actually from reading your post, is it connected to the stepper motor, or is it independant?
Just be glad you're not trying to fault find something with electronic throttles and drive by wire!
I am!
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Post by lowedb »

If the peg is moving out, that's the symptom but unlikely to be the cause.

The stepper motor turns an internal valve thing for the enrichment (rather like pulling the jet down on our beloved mogs) but a Cam (!) pushes out the idle increase peg at the same time. So if it's not moving it could be a mechanical problem, but more likely the stepper is in a hot position, ie no enrichment, no idle speed increase. This would tie up with a sensor fault where the ECU is detecting the fault so assuming a hot engine when its only warm or even cold.
Hello from Audrey, Beast, Tara, Robin, and of course Mog.

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Post by Cam »

Thanks again Duncan, I'll get a temp sensor to try first.

And sorry to everyone else for hijacking this thread, but it has been really useful for me.
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Post by Cam »

Just a quick update, Duncan.

Changing the temp sensor has not cured the problem. BUT I think I have a partial solution:

When idling (from cold - through to hot) it sometimes ticks over and sometimes does not (intermittent fault).

If I wait until it is warm (when it won't tick over) then switch the engine off and then back on again it ticks over fine.

I can live with that, but I just wondered if that narrows down the probable cause?
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Back to the unleaded thread!

Post by hornmeister2000 »

OK, guys, I actually did a LOT of research on this subject when I bought my minor about 6 weeks ago, and also in relations to my MG Maestro last year when the valves went. This may go on a bit, but will hopefully answer any questions you have...

The first thing I noticed, is that the majority of mechanics don't really know what they're talking about, and it's easy to get a different story from different people. I'm saying that what I know is absolutely right, but with the number of people I've asked about it, I think it's fairly accurate.

My Maestro's valves went in July last year, just in time for the MOT. I took it to my usual garage who said it was because I'd been running it on unleaded. He charged £700 to do the valves (which I've since found was vastly overpriced). While he was doing it, I checked my engine and ECU numbers with Rover, who confirmed what I already knew - that the engine was suitable for unleaded. I told my garage this, and he said that although it had hardened valve seats, then timing couldn't be retarded which was what caused the problem (this is also wrong, as it is fitted with an ECU with the timing already retarded for 95RON unleaded). The solution, he said, was to put a cylinder in the fuel line containing pellets. He put it in for £25 saying that would solve my problem and sent me on my way. Unconvinced, I contacted the MG Owners Club. Firstly, the pellets are supposed to add lead (or something) to the petrol and have no effect on the engine timing (so my mechanic obviously didn't know what he was talking about) and we'd already established that I had hardened valve seats anyway. More importantly, these products have been tested by the FVHBC and they have no effect at all. Didn't matter in my case, of course, as it was an unleaded engine anyway, and they don't do any harm. Now what I found out when enquiring about an unleaded conversion for the Minor (which my wife tells me is now known as Naomi!), is that if the bottom of the engine is weak and the head is overhauled or replaced, then this will increase the wear on the pistons, rings, etc. That's something to think about when getting an unleaded conversion on a Minor. Sure enough, 12 months later, the piston rings went on the Maestro and 2 weeks ago I got a reconditioned engine.

When I picked it up from the engine place, we had a chat about unleaded on older cars and he said that in the example of the Maestro, it was OK, the timing was right and the valve seats were hardened, but it was still an engine originally designed for leaded and has higher compression as a result (a Rover O-series). He said that the engine would last longer and perform better if run on 98RON Super Plus, although 95RON wouldn't really do any harm. He also confirmed that the pellets did no good at all.

So, that's the case with the Maestro, and I would assume that a Minor would be similar in terms of the octane rating - although the timing can be retarded, you're better off using a higher octane and leaving the timing alone. Another thing I learnt, is that if a car's been driving for a long time on leaded, a 'lead memory' will have built up, effectively cussioning the valve seats for a while even if it's run on unleaded. I would imagine that's the case for those using pellets or standard UL on an unconverted car. The FVHBC has approved a few additives which work. I use Castrol Valvemaster in the Minor because it's easily available in Halfrauds and is recommended by the MGOC as well. Apparently the reason you should mix even approved additives, is that each additive sticks well to the valve seats and provides lubrication, but apparently they don't stick to each other very well, so if you keep changing, it doesn't get a chance to build up sufficiently. This is the same with LRP - the manufacturers won't say what's in it so you don't know if you're mixing or not. Also, they probably contain less additive than they should, and all the petrol companies refused to submit any for FVHBC testing, which I think demonstrates their own confidence in their products!! It's disappearing from forecourts now anyway, and good ridance to it!

The advice I was given for Naomi was to use an approved additive which would apparently work almost as well as lead. The car's only done 50k so apparently it's an unnecessary risk for me to fit a new head, and I'm better off waiting until (if) the engine eventually dies of old age, then getting it fully reconditioned and converted for unleaded. This seems to be working fine. I'm using standard valvemaster with standard unleaded with no pinking and with the engine timing unchanged, although next fill-up I'm going to try with super plus and see if there's any difference. Then, if there's an improvement, I'll probably use standard UL with valvemast plus - then Tony Blair gets less tax off me than if I was running super plus with standard valvemaster!

I hope this answers some questions. If anyone knows something I'm missing or have got wrong, please let me know! Incidentally, did you know you can get Valvemaster direct from Castrol (sorry - can't remember the number, but try surfing the web or calling Castrol) for 6 bottles for the price of 5 with free postage or 12 for 10, if you buy in bulk.

One other tip - keep the bottle in a plastic bag in hot weather, or let some air out of it or something cuz mine expanded in that hot weather in August and leaked over the carpet!!! :cry:
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Post by lowedb »

The O Series Maestro ignition controller has knock sensing, so can adjust the timing if it detects detonation occuring. This means that if you run on a lower RON fuel, it will back the timing off as neccesary. Whether it's advisable to run all the time with the system having to compensate is a whole new story though.

Cam, I'll have a think about your problem and contact you directly via email.
Cam
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Post by Cam »

Cheers mate
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Post by Peetee »

He charged £700 to do the valves
Did this bloke tell you the engine wasn't suitable for unleaded? If so I would take steps to recover some or all of this money. I have heard so much about garages trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes on this issue it makes me sick. Garages should know what is suitable and what's not - it's as common knowledge to them as the right spark plugs. :evil:
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