Mini Disks????

[jonathon]

Yep, I'd definately go along with that as well. Ive covered over 600,000 miles on bikes in the 25 years and the skill levels and awareness you develop, in a need to survive this long would, put most car drivers to shame.
Ray, I was'nt having a dig, but I don't feel that reducing a cars efficiency in order to promote better driving is a good idea. Maybe manufacturers are just being responsible and are making allowances for the fact that so many drivers on the road today, young and old , should never hold a liscence based on their driving merits.
I think a good idea to clamp down on poor drivers is to increase the scope in practical driving tests rather than concentrate on the theory. And a definate progression into motoring should be adopted ,as with bikes, where you are limited to an specific engine size and performance for a few years until you have a reasonable level of experience.
I believe however that the main problem of new and long term drivers is not, always speeding but inconsistant driving with no regard for other road users.

[rayofleamington]

When I learned to ride a motorbike it *totally* transformed the way I drove

me too (eventually )- I normally gloss over my 2 trips to hospital during those 4 years ;-) only one was my fault - didn't see an unsigned T junction coming up due to dreadful headlight output, and late braking didn't work as heavy rain had filled that part of the junction with gravel. 40+mph on the ground face down = ouch
moral of that story is to respect country roads and drive within the limit of what you can see.
2nd hospital trip, overtaking a transit van at ~65mph when he decides to turn right into a side road without indicating. The Van drove off, and although we got the reg, the driver was never traced.
Moral of that story is that bikes come off worse than vans, and full face helmets save on the amount of face repairs you need, and make sure there is no chance someone may turn right before you decide to buzz past them.

[Matt]

I can't comment about (motor) bikes, but cycling in London makes you realise some people drive like total *******! I am definately in the minority of young drivers, driving anything from new-ish minibuses, landrovers with trailers through to minors and a 1926 transit type truck (with only drums on the back). The variety of shapes, sizes and breaking abilities really make you think about what you are doing!

[Pyoor_Kate]

I think that's the other thing that's helped with my driving*, actually. Sheer variety.

While I was learning to drive I took lessons (not many, tbh) in one car, practiced in another, and played in the Mog on private land. I ended up driving a SWB landy, a big 2 litre Vauxhall, and 2 pugs before I'd passed my test. Then I passed my test, and drove rental cars, vans, lorrys (up to a 3.5 tonner; I think if I move house after this I might have to step up further, which'd be a bit scary really, but I'd probably enjoy it). 4x4s, FWDs, RWDs.

By the time I'd got into my mog I'd covered something well over 150,000 miles (I put nearly 12,000 on my mums car in the time I was learning! (My parents got me to drive *everywhere*)).

I'd ridden about 12k on the bike too; quite a lot of them on the world's worst tyres (Chen Shin Golden Boy, incidentally. Made from possibly the hardest material in the world. Now in use grinding down diamonds to a fine powder), which taught me so much about road awareness, how incredibly blind drivers are, how stupid pedestrians are ("Ah, a bike, that'll be nice and soft I'll just step out in front of that"), and just how slippery the road really is - especially when it's remotely damp.

The thing I've noticed though is I'm happier in the car if I'm driven by someone who's had motorbike training. Their awareness is different, and their driving style seems to be affected...***

Uh, Yeah, so ramble over.

*I don't think I'm a particularly good driver, but various people have said I drive well. I think I'm average, but perhaps I'm harsh. I still think I need to improve though; some skid-pan driving'd be good and 3 weeks of driving on Ice in Alaska should remind me just how much I need to learn.

** To be fair, my mog was relatively low milage, gently treated and quite honestly in staggeringly good mechanical condition (apart from the engine).

*** Although, quite a few of the bikers I knew were complete nutters, when driving they were incredibly sane. Don't ask me why, I don't know. I'm sure there are _many_ exceptions.

[Kevin]

but cycling in London makes you realise some people drive like total *******!

Including many that are on bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rayofleamington]

Including many that are on bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I was younger I used to cycle according to the rules (most of the time) . Having watched young cyclists for the last 20 year, I've now learnt that it is perfectly ok to cycle on the pavement, the wrong way up 1 way streets, in the dark with no lights, right across the front of oncoming traffic, through red lights, through pedestrian zones etc...
I must say that it is hard to want to follow the rules when no-one esle does. When I was younger we were mindful that the police would give cyclists a hard time for breaking the rules, however as that is nolonger the case there seems absolutely nothing to 'assist' cyclists into having better road manners. If you can't beat em, join em ;-)

[Matt]

Thats something that winds me up too!! I am one of the few who obey the traffic lights etc (although I do sometime cycle on the pavement and under the underpass at the large roundabout in Shephers Bush... I'm sure I would be killed if I tried going around that one!!!)

[Kevin]

I'm sure I would be killed if I tried going around that one!!!)

Probably right Matt if they didnt get you the 1st time you wouldnt make it a second time

[KirstMin]

although I do sometime cycle on the pavement and under the underpass at the large roundabout in Shephers Bush... I'm sure I would be killed if I tried going around that one!!!

I've done that one on my bike (push). Once. Avoided it since.

Seriously Ray, not ALL cyclists are like that - a bit cynical me thinks - there are as many who are law abiding as there are car/motorcycle drivers who are law abiding. I reckon the proportion is the same across vehicles; after all it's the person, not the mode of transport that makes them break the rules.

I do 70 miles a week commuting on my bike in London and have done for 6 years, rain, shine or snow. A lot of people are just idiots not matter what they are in charge of - lorries, cars, cycles, motorbikes, vans, busses. I guess the only difference is that the potential for damage is a lot less on a bike (other than to yourself).

[Matt]

I guess the only difference is that the potential for damage is a lot less on a bike (other than to yourself).

And your tracability.....

I commute on my bike when its not cold, dark and wet, so I get the bus most of the year ;)