Brake master cylinder

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poppet
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Brake master cylinder

Post by poppet »

Hi
We are trying to 'sharpen up' the brakes on my 1098cc 1968 4 door saloon'Poppy'. The front and back brakes on all 4 sides are fine as are the cables. We are now looking at the master cylinder and after looking at the manual we are doing some 'groaning'!
Does anyone know if it's worth purchasing a repair kit and if so do you have to take out the master cylinder to use the kit (it's the taking it out that looks frightening)? :roll:
Willie
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master

Post by Willie »

Yes, you do have to remove the unit to fit the master cylinder
kit. What are your symptoms?? is the pedal spongy or does
it go down too far etc??
Willie
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poppet
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Post by poppet »

Hi
in order to get good reaction from the brakes I have to press the pedal down a long way.
According to the manual, if there is a fault with the master cylinder then bubbles will appear in the brake fluid when the pedal is depressed, however, when we took the cap off the master cylinder and depressed the brake pedal brake fluid squirted out of the filler hole.
Any ideas?
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bmcecosse
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Post by bmcecosse »

Fluid squirt is normal. Adjust and bleed the brakes and they will be fine. Master cylinders rarely go wrong - and yes the job is a bit of a b****** - so don't do it unless you absolutely need to. Remember - for the rear brakes you should slacken off the cables - then adjust up the rear drums - then re-tighten the cables to get a short travel on the handbrake. If you don't do that then there can be a space between the two pistons in the rear cylinders - and so the foot brake will have a long travel.
newagetraveller
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Post by newagetraveller »

If you take the cap off the master cylinder and press the brake pedal down quickly the brake fluid will squirt up in the air.

If however you press the brake pedal down very slowly no fluid will squirt up but some bubbles will come to the surface. Press down slowly several more times, more bubbles will surface and the level of the fluid will go down. Top up the fluid to the bottom of the thread.

It is possible to get a lot of the air out of the system without going round each of the slave cylinders.

When you replace the cap the pedal should be firmer. If it still goes down too far it is probable that you need to adjust the brake shoes at each of the wheels.
rayofleamington
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Post by rayofleamington »

If you press the pedal slowly and bubbles come up then you have a leaking secondary seal - fix this ASAP. Corrosion in the bore making the secondary seal leak is the most common failure of the Moggy master cylinder (it is more likely to happen in cold weather as the seals shrink just a fraction but it can happen at any time). If left unchecked you are likely to get a nasty surprise and no brakes one day.

The open end of the master cylinder bore suffers from damp and condensation and also can get water trapped in it as the washer behind the circlip does no allow water to get out :( (therefore don't be hasty when it comes to driving in a flood - if the chassis leg gets a lot of water in it, so will the m/c!). Water in the m/c will make the bore rust and when the secondary starts leaking you can't ignore it.

To get a very good pedal you will need the shoes adjusted to remove all clearance. If that is already done and the pedal travel is still wrong then there are many other reasons:
1) air in the system due to bleeding
2) wrongly fitted wheel cylinder cup seal (I've seen one upside down! it worked but gave spongy brakes). This is only possible with the cup seal and an upside down piston lip seal shouldn't give a springy pedal.
3) air in the system due to a leaky cylinder
4) Flexi-hoses are way past their sell-by date.
5) air in the system due to a faulty master cylinder
6) Faulty m/c

Regarding #1 it is not easy to bleed a Minor. The rear bleed nipples do not bleed the cylinders, they only bleed the pipe and connector, therefore you need to 'prime' the rear cylinders by removing the brakes (or at least slacken the adjuster) allowing the piston to move when under pressure. This movement allows fluid into the cylinder and when the piston is pushed back the air at the top of the cylinder will be pushed back into the pipe leaving fluid behind. This can need to be repeated a fair few times when fitting a new cylinder.
The rear connector banjo should be aimed upwards to allow the air to collect under the bleed nipple, which helps with bleeding out the last remaining air.

You have to remove the m/c to inspect it. I'd suggest not to risk wasting money on a seal kit unless you have already inspected the m/c.
If the bore is rusty around the secondary seal (the one nearest the pedal), a seal kit won't fix it.
If the bore is fine, then fit a new seal kit anyway (but only if the bore is fine).
I'd double check 1 to 5 before removing the m/c (unless you can see bubbles rising, then it is best to do the m/c first)

Removing the m/c is not too bad when you're used to it. Most of it is overcome by determination!

Here's the best way I've found:

A) remove the brake pipe from the T piece on the rear axle.
B) stick a container under the end of this pipe and catch the fluid from the m/c. Often it will empty itself (so have the container nearby)but that does imply a fault! If it doesn't pour out by itself then pump the fluid out - this is better than splilling it everywhere.
C) Remove the brake pipe from the front brakes at the connector by the side of the chassis leg
D) Using a strong bar (I use a 2 foot long wrecking bar) and a thick piece of wood on the floorpan (about 20" long - or more if it fits) check that you have the strength to lever the torsion bar away from the floor by about an inch. It's not easy so if you can't do that see if you can lever it with a jack on the end of the bar. The bar needs to be positioned just to the side of a bolt (or in the middle of both but getting it moved enough for both bolts in one go requires more effort)
E) when you are happy that you can move the torsion bar, take the nuts off the m/c bolts
F) using a screwdriver / thin diameter bar and small hammer, tap the bolt head up to the torsion bar. Then bend the torsion bar just enough to clear the head and push the bolt throught the chassis leg from the far side [DONT GRAB THE BOLT HEAD WITH YOUR FINGERS UNTIL IT IS WELL CLEAR OF THE TORSION BAR just in case something slips - fingers are too precious to take any risk]
G) Push the master cylinder back into the chassis leg until it is clear of the brake pedal pushrod.
H) Lift the front of the m/c up above the pushrod and slide the m/c forwards and out of the leg
I) Disconnect the rear brake pipe from the back of the m/c when it is nice and easy to get to :D (If you try and disconnect this one with the m/c in the leg it can take ages)

To get into the guts of the m/c remove the circlip with any old circlip pliers and then also the big washer (it is spring loaded so you may need to press the piston into the m/c using a 3rd hand to make it easier)
The piston will normally remove itself with the spring force.

If you can get that far, I'm happy to give further tips on inspecting the seals. The cup seal and outlet seal should be changed if the m/c seems ok and these will come in the seal kit anyway

Re assembly is 90% a reverse of the previous instructions, however you need to take great care when reassembling the m/c seals. It is often best to remove the pushrod from the pedal (not highly recommended) to get the boot to fit the pushrod and m/c correctly however due to the pedal return spring this is a prize pain and not good for a novice!

The seal kit I got (from Bull Motif) 2 weeks ago was pretty awful. The output seal was the wrong size and I wasted 2 hours getting it to the right size so it would assemble :cry: The boot didn't have a drain hole! (i cut my own hole) and the boot was a bad fit meaning the whole thing was a paint to reassemble, and not even worth trying to get it to fit the pushrod properly.

Oh yes...if the brake pipes refuse to screw back into the connectors, then that means the end of the flare nut has been flared (the nut shouldn't get deformed but it can happen usually from being overtightened). The bodge way to cure it is to file down the end of the flare nut (highly not recommended) and the correct way to fix it is to replace the pipe so that you have new flare nuts.

If the pipes are old anyway it is often worth just to replace them - then you don't have to worry if the pipe is damaged when you unscrew the flare nut (often the pipe rusts into the nut so it turns round with the nut and wrecks itself).
New pipes are cheap, so it saves a lot of aggro.

Good luck!
Last edited by rayofleamington on Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ray. MMOC#47368. Forum moderator.

Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block :(
bmcecosse
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Post by bmcecosse »

Excellent description Ray. When re-assembling the m/c into the chassis it's best to put the bolts back in the other way round - so much easier - but just check the bolt ends and nuts don't foul against the torsion bar.
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Matt
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Post by Matt »

yes, but if they come loose you can suddenly find the master cylinder has moved and you have a distinct lack of brakes..... (or so i've been told) so do them up well!
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Cam
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Post by Cam »

Also, putting them in the right way prevents the bolts from ever working their way out (probably very unlikely), but different folks do it different ways!

Actually I think that was perhaps what Matt was getting at. :o
Matt
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Post by Matt »

yup!
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Chris Morley
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Post by Chris Morley »

Ray, would you like to cut'n'paste your master cylinder post as a new thread in 'tips'? It must have taken ages to write so it would be good to have it there permanently for reference.
Chris
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poppet
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Post by poppet »

An excellent response from you all - thank you.
I think we'll try the easiest/simplest/cheapest options first and then progress onwards. If we find ourselves taking the 'wonderful piece of machinery' out I'll keep you informed and let you know the outcome. Once again -thanks!
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poppet
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Post by poppet »

By the way - really nice photo's
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rayofleamington
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Post by rayofleamington »

Excellent description Ray. When re-assembling the m/c into the chassis it's best to put the bolts back in the other way round - so much easier
Easier - yes but not better! I've done this myself when I was a teenager (didn't know you could bend the torsion bar out of the way so I cut the heads off the old bolts and reversed the new ones)
After a few years I noticed the new bolts had worn a groove in the torsion bar! :o
There is a reason that the slim head goes next to the torsion bar, not the more stickey - out end with the nut!
Ray. MMOC#47368. Forum moderator.

Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block :(
bmcecosse
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Post by bmcecosse »

Which is why I said you need to make sure the bolt/nut don't foul the torsion bar.
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les
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Post by les »

Did u know healthy torsion bars whip in use? Clearance when at rest is one thing---- most things seem to be done by the makers for a reason!
rayofleamington
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Post by rayofleamington »

Which is why I said you need to make sure the bolt/nut don't foul the torsion bar.
They didn't foul the bar. It moves when in use, which is something I didn't bargain for to start with. Those BMC engineers knew what they were doing!
When I was younger and often found 'improving' things on the motorbikes, and then the cars, my dad was often heard to say " they must have made it like that for a reason". Nowadays I know he was right :lol:
Ray. MMOC#47368. Forum moderator.

Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block :(
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