indicators which controls

[Meggie moggy]

Hi all
I am really confused as to which indicator control to fit, i am restoring a original 1961 convertable which has semaphore indicators.
I want to keep the semaphore's but will add discreet front and rear indicators. My question is which indicator stalk should I use as most pictures I can find have the stalk with the pygmy lamp on the end ( I could not check on my car as the steering column was missing when I collected it) or the one with the light near to the column?
TIA

[ManyMinors]

A 1961 Minor 1000 would have been fitted with an indicator stalk having the green warning light on the end and would self-cancel. The horn button should be in the centre of the steering wheel. The earlier indicator switch with the warning light closer to the column has the horn button on the end of the stalk. They were not fitted after early 1959.

[Meggie moggy]

Thankyou that is what I was hoping for

[svenedin]

Lucas 37SA 31883.

Many stalks look similar but only one type is suitable for your Minor. Variants were used in many other cars. For instance, the Mini one is too short, wrong angle and only has 5 wires rather than 6.

The modern reproductions are unreliable and a good second-hand or new old stock unit is preferable.

Stephen

[myoldjalopy]

A 1961 Minor 1000 would have been fitted with an indicator stalk having the green warning light on the end and would self-cancel. The horn button should be in the centre of the steering wheel. The earlier indicator switch with the warning light closer to the column has the horn button on the end of the stalk. They were not fitted after early 1959.

Interestingly, I once had a very early 1000 (1956) and the indicator switch included the horn push, as you say, but there was no warning light anywhere. The horn push was clear plastic - mostly they are black from this era. There was a lot of variation with these early cars e.g. this particular 1000 also had SII front seats!

[ManyMinors]

The Minor was fairly regularly updated during the 1950s but all had an indicator warning light somewhere. I'm guessing that your 1956 car was a 4door saloon since these were fitted with Series 11 seat frames early on - although with different covers. cars with no indicator warning light built into the switch had it within the speedo head. The horn button on the end of the stalk was always black originally but depending on the plastic used, many faded to a clear finish fairly quickly.

[myoldjalopy]

Yes, it was a 4-door, but the seat cover was the same as a SII, I'm sure. There was a warning lamp for the indicator in the speedo but I don't think it was connected up...I don't remember any flashing light when signalling. The clear button was even a different shape to the later ones, a bit smaller and more rounded at the end.

[geoberni]

The Minor was fairly regularly updated during the 1950s but all had an indicator warning light somewhere. I'm guessing that your 1956 car was a 4door saloon since these were fitted with Series 11 seat frames early on - although with different covers. cars with no indicator warning light built into the switch had it within the speedo head. The horn button on the end of the stalk was always black originally but depending on the plastic used, many faded to a clear finish fairly quickly.

Early Stalk, on the S3, had the lamp built into the Stalk Housing on the steering column.
Then it moved to the end of the Stalk after they reintroduced the steering wheel horn button, which carried on into S5 cars.

Did they ever use the speedo IND lamp on home market cars?

[myoldjalopy]

To clarify, unlike most early 1000's, my 1956 1000 did not have a lamp in the stalk housing. Nor anywhere a lamp could have been fitted without cutting holes.
As to your question about the speedo ind lamp, I don't know - except to say that my indicator stalk switch wasn't connected to the speedo lamp. In short, no lamp operated when I was indicating in that car. It was very early though, Nov 1956 IIRC.

[geoberni]

To clarify, unlike most early 1000's, my 1956 1000 did not have a lamp in the stalk housing. Nor anywhere a lamp could have been fitted without cutting holes.
As to your question about the speedo ind lamp, I don't know - except to say that my indicator stalk switch wasn't connected to the speedo lamp. In short, no lamp operated when I was indicating in that car. It was very early though, Nov 1956 IIRC.

That is born out by the Parts list, the first 1000 in Oct 56 through to around Oct 57, didn't have the tell-tale lamp

Very strange illustration and listing, it's like the switch case/bodyshell was the same part, but they just didn't fit the lamp....
.

Ind stalk.JPG (77.33 KiB) Viewed 2290 times

Ind Stalk 1.JPG (102.04 KiB) Viewed 2290 times

[myoldjalopy]

Phew, thank goodness for the parts list - I knew I wasn't imagining it
A pity about that car.....it got written off by a white van man back in 1999

[ManyMinors]

As I said. Cars with no warning light in the switch had it within the speedo head

[geoberni]

As I said. Cars with no warning light in the switch had it within the speedo head

I would imagine that is what they did, there is just no documentation for it, like a wiring diagram.
The only diagram that could apply is N31, which is marked for LHD Export vehicles with flashing Indicators, i.e. North Americas.

[jaekl]

This era involved many changes. All switch bodies had the hole for the lamp as surely other vehicles use the Lucas switch. Initially Minors used the unlighted version with the indicator in the speedo. For models with flashing indicators the wire may have come directly from the flasher unit under the bonnet mount next to the 8-way relay. When the decision was made to upgrade the switch with the lamp, apparently there was a supply of speedos left with with two lamp spots at the top but the one for "IND" was empty. I believe I saw examples of these speedos on this messageboard. The function of the indicator lamp is a bit different between trafficators and flashing lamps. With trafficators the indicator informs the driver that a trafficator is activated. For models with flashing lamps it also informs the driver that one of the lamp is not working. The flasher units is designed to work with a certain amperage to heat the bi=metallic interrupter. If a lamp burns out, the indicator stays on, doesn't flash. Based on the various wiring diagrams, the indicator lamp for trafficators is connected across the outputs of the switch such that the unused trafficator provides the earth for the circuit but there is not enough current to activate the trafficator. This would have two wires for the indicator located in the speedo to originate from the switch.

[myoldjalopy]

As I said. Cars with no warning light in the switch had it within the speedo head

I would imagine that is what they did, there is just no documentation for it, like a wiring diagram.
The only diagram that could apply is N31, which is marked for LHD Export vehicles with flashing Indicators, i.e. North Americas.

I can only re-iterate that my 1956 1000 did not have the switch connected to the speedo lamp, so that, without the lamp in the indicator switch, no lights flashed when I indicated (except, of course, the indicators themselves). It is possible, however, that this might not have been the case originally, as a PO had removed the trafficators and fitted after-market flashers, so it might have got disconnected then - we all know what POs are capable of - or not - as the case may be!

[geoberni]

This era involved many changes. All switch bodies had the hole for the lamp as surely other vehicles use the Lucas switch. Initially Minors used the unlighted version with the indicator in the speedo. For models with flashing indicators the wire may have come directly from the flasher unit under the bonnet mount next to the 8-way relay. When the decision was made to upgrade the switch with the lamp, apparently there was a supply of speedos left with with two lamp spots at the top but the one for "IND" was empty. I believe I saw examples of these speedos on this messageboard. The function of the indicator lamp is a bit different between trafficators and flashing lamps. With trafficators the indicator informs the driver that a trafficator is activated. For models with flashing lamps it also informs the driver that one of the lamp is not working. The flasher units is designed to work with a certain amperage to heat the bi=metallic interrupter. If a lamp burns out, the indicator stays on, doesn't flash. Based on the various wiring diagrams, the indicator lamp for trafficators is connected across the outputs of the switch such that the unused trafficator provides the earth for the circuit but there is not enough current to activate the trafficator. This would have two wires for the indicator located in the speedo to originate from the switch.

Essentially you're correct, especially the unusual manner of allowing the supply to feed to earth via the non-deployed Trafficator to power the tell-tale lamp,
What we in the UK generally refer to as US type Indicators, using the Brake Lights on the rear, were always rare in the UK.
They had to be introduced to the Minor at the SII change to Central Speedometer (as evidenced by wiring diagram on page N31 of the BMC W/S manual) because of changes to regulations in the USA. The US market was always a difficult trading environment in the 1950s because there were, as I understand it, few or no Federal requirements, each State DMV was setting the pace with improvements to vehicle safety etc.
Many US States were requiring 'Indicators' rather than hand signals.
The USA had never really used Trafficators/Semaphores as had been quite common in Europe pre-WWII.
The system was then introduced to the Minor 1000 for the UK market 8 years later in 1961, as a stopgap measure before separate Amber Indicators were introduced in 1963.

Incidentally, the US wasn't totally anti indicating arms, I did see this device on a 1914 Model T Truck...
(Riverside Resort Hotel car collection, Laughlin NV in 2009 )

2009_1227Laughlin_Oatman0043.JPG (738.7 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

2009_1227Laughlin_Oatman0044.JPG (629.77 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

[Bill_qaz]

Here's another example

Screenshot_20260904-165635_Samsung Browser.jpg (69.57 KiB) Viewed 1108 times

u

[59Elva]

I never seen a trafficator in operation over here. Did the arm incorporate a flashing light? It would seem a necessity at night.

[myoldjalopy]

I never seen a trafficator in operation over here. Did the arm incorporate a flashing light? It would seem a necessity at night.

No, they didn't flash originally, just lit up, although they have been modified to flash over the years, especially in recent times.

[geoberni]

I never seen a trafficator in operation over here. Did the arm incorporate a flashing light? It would seem a necessity at night.

No, they were only a flip out amber arm.
It's possible to fit flashing LED lamps to them now.

When they were common traffic was very light even by 1970s standards.
But in Europe they were fairly standard, while in the US you were relying on Arm signals only.

I wrote an article a couple of years ago for Minor Matters, the MMOC Magazine, explaining how the trafficator/Indicators systems on the Minor had evolved from trafficators to all Amber Indicators

Here's a small extract, along with one example of what alternatives were also in use.
This 1930's Talbot sports model had the front Indicator Arrows buried centrally, while the rear were both mounted on the right side above the offset registration plate ...

Trafficator signals, or Semaphors, were common though not universal in Europe from the 1920s; but American manufacturers didn't favour them at all. Ford fitted their European Model T with trafficators, but not in the USA; there drivers were stuck with hand signals. In the UK, other indicator systems existed; for example non-flashing 'Amber Indicators' were standard fit on several expensive Talbot models in the mid 1930s. Though given their discreet placement, effectiveness must be doubtful.

Talbot front view.jpg (1 MiB) Viewed 943 times