Altering seat belt mountings?

[KevinB]

Seat belt mounting

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My Morris has inertia reel belts fitted by a previous owner. I do not find them good to wear, largely because of the position of the 'top' mounting point on the 'waist' rail by the back seat.
Can this be moved higher to the roof rail so the belt comes down vertically?
Thanks in advance.

[philthehill]

There is very little strength in the body above the waist rail.
The Minor bodywork was never designed for the fitting of seat belts and later incorporated belt anchorages were fitted were they are because there was no other places for then to be fitted - so all in all much of an afterthought.
My own seat belt fitted to a 1958 Minor is the type that fits over both shoulders and lap and is anchored to reinforcing plates at strong points under the floor as there are no incorporated seat belt mounts.
All you can do is find the strong points and go from there.

[geoberni]

That appears be the factory seat belt position.
Fitting the mounting points was mandatory for all car production from 1965; when also fitting the belts became mandatory in 1968, it was one of the occasions that a law was retrospective, stating that all cars registered since '65, which had the mountings, now also had to have the belts fitted.

So legally you'll be on shaky ground going against the manufacturer and probably in breach of the Construction and Use Regs.
Not to say it can't be done, but you'd probably have to jump through a lot of approval hoops to do anything formally and that includes informing your insurance.

IMHO, it'd be on a par with modifying the car to go rallying, you'd fit roll bars and multipoint harness in such circumstances, which would requiring certifying in some manner, for safety.

If it's 8" back from the door opening, then that's the provided mounting point.

My Minor predates seatbelts by 10 years so he doesn't have them.

[KevinB]

Thank you both. So that's likely to be factory mounting points? Ahh that did not occur to me.

So presumably, legally I should always use the belts on the road? Must admit, I thought that was optional given the vehicle's age and historic tax class. Nevertheless, I do use it, even though it tends to slip down from the shoulder.

[Bill_qaz]

The mounting point was made for fixed belt not inertia reel, so once adjusted the shoulder strap would not relax and possibly it would stay in position.
I found the fixed belts my car came with very awkward so changed to inertia type but being a 4 door the mount is much higher on the B pillar.
You don’t have a lot of choice with the mounting point so maybe try the fixed belt.

[geoberni]

Thank you both. So that's likely to be factory mounting points? Ahh that did not occur to me.

So presumably, legally I should always use the belts on the road? Must admit, I thought that was optional given the vehicle's age and historic tax class. Nevertheless, I do use it, even though it tends to slip down from the shoulder.

If you have a late edition of the BMC Workshop Manual, AKD530, the instructions for fitting seatbelt is included in Section R.
if you don't have a copy, look for a pdf download of 'AKD 530 workshop manual' there are several online libraries that have it for free download.

That's where I got the 8" from the door opening measurement

I've been pondering this since my earlier response and there is one little niggle I have about this; perhaps someone with factory fit belts can confirm it.
The instructions for retrofitting front belts to cars pre and post '65 are slightly different in the W/S Manual. If you look at the illustration, the factory fit appears to be mounted further back, using a different bracket to the kit provided for cars with no factory anchorages.
If your car is a 67, then you should have the mounting further back and the hole around the 8" point is for some sort of support??:-?
It may not resolve your slipping off the shoulder problem.

But yes, as a post 65 vehicle seat belts are required to be fitted and worn.
.

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[svenedin]

My car, a 1969 convertible had factory fitted belts and the engine bay plate states this. These were of the passenger aircraft type buckle and fixed. You buckled them and adjusted them every time you used them. They tended not to come off the shoulder but eventually the belts frayed and had to be replaced. My inertia reel replacements, using the same factory mountings do fall off my shoulder.


Stephen

[geoberni]

My car, a 1969 convertible had factory fitted belts and the engine bay plate states this. These were of the passenger aircraft type buckle and fixed. You buckled them and adjusted them every time you used them. They tended not to come off the shoulder but eventually the belts frayed and had to be replaced. My inertia reel replacements, using the same factory mountings do fall off my shoulder.


Stephen

Do yours follow the 2nd post 65 illustration, with a triangular bracket?

[svenedin]

My car, a 1969 convertible had factory fitted belts and the engine bay plate states this. These were of the passenger aircraft type buckle and fixed. You buckled them and adjusted them every time you used them. They tended not to come off the shoulder but eventually the belts frayed and had to be replaced. My inertia reel replacements, using the same factory mountings do fall off my shoulder.


Stephen

Do yours follow the 2nd post 65 illustration, with a triangular bracket?

I have spent all day preparing the car for a car show but I didn't notice the details of the seat belt mountings ..........I will have a look!

Stephen

[svenedin]

Shiny!

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These are for inertia reel seatbelts using the original factory fitted mounting points. I didn't fit them, ESM did.

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[KevinB]

Thank you all so much. This is a wonderful message board!

So it looks like my belts may be using the factory mountings. I will check it carefully tomorrow against your photos and illustrations. And I will think if fixed belts might work better.

Thanks Stephen, I hope your car show goes well tomorrow!

Kevin

[svenedin]

Thank you all so much. This is a wonderful message board!

So it looks like my belts may be using the factory mountings. I will check it carefully tomorrow against your photos and illustrations. And I will think if fixed belts might work better.

Thanks Stephen, I hope your car show goes well tomorrow!

Kevin

Thank you. It's really an agricultural show with some classic cars, Edenbridge and Oxted Show. Entry fees have become very expensive, £32 per adult but if invited to exhibit a classic car, entry is free for driver and one passenger so it is very much worth going.

Stephen

[geoberni]

Thank you. It's really an agricultural show with some classic cars, Edenbridge and Oxted Show. Entry fees have become very expensive, £32 per adult but if invited to exhibit a classic car, entry is free for driver and one passenger so it is very much worth going.

Stephen

That's why I go in Basil to the annual airshow at East Kirkby. https://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/
Regular Adult admission this year was £28.50.
Displaying your classic for them the driver gets in for £12, plus your car is at hand rather than off in the public parking, so no having to carry stuff back and forth. Also anything I might buy can be dropped off in the boot instead of having to carry it around all day.

[geoberni]

These are for inertia reel seatbelts using the original factory fitted mounting points. I didn't fit them, ESM did.

That does invariably seem to be the position of belt fixings in 2dr/convertible despite the drawing in the W/S Manual showing something different.

I spent ages looking at 2dr/convertible interior images and of those with seat belts literally only a couple had anything remotely like the layout illustrated in the manual.
Thy use a chrome bracket but then don't have what appears to be a 'stowage clip' where your seat belt fixing it.
Another mystery in the BMC documentation of 60 years ago....
Oh well...

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[KevinB]

Rear LH

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I've been investigating possible factory-fitted reinforcement for the left hand front belt. I could have looked the right hand (drivers) side I suppose, but I wanted to follow on from geoberni's photo above.
1. I can feel a thick vertical metal plate acting as a washer behind my seat belt fixing we can see in my photo.
2. Also, there is a piece of horizontal thinner metalwork under the window where my screwdriver is in the photo. This creates a short 'box section' in effect. I wonder if this could be part of the fixing point there, as shown in geoberni's illustration and in his photo above?

[geoberni]

I'm at a loss to understand why the vast majority of cars with a 'factory fit installation' do not conform to the Workshop manual for a factory fit or dealer installation.

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't have the final edition of the Workshop Manual, here's the 2 columns placed side-by-side....
According to this there is supposed to be a 'belt stowage clip' between the attachment point and the floor pillar.
Has anyone ever seen or or got a car fitted with them?
There's also meant to be a warning label on the rear of the front seats....
it must have been a metal or stiff plastic label as it was fixed on with 2 screws; I wonder what that said?
.

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[ManyMinors]

That does invariably seem to be the position of belt fixings in 2dr/convertible despite the drawing in the W/S Manual showing something different.

I spent ages looking at 2dr/convertible interior images and of those with seat belts literally only a couple had anything remotely like the layout illustrated in the manual.
Thy use a chrome bracket but then don't have what appears to be a 'stowage clip' where your seat belt fixing it.
Another mystery in the BMC documentation of 60 years ago....
Oh well...

There is no real mystery Bernie. Stephen's picture shows his car which is a later model with the later seatbelt mounting built into the rail. The picture in the workshop manual shows the earlier mounting - using a bracket bolted into mountings underneath the body rail.
Even the Minor 1000 underwent the occasional bit of development over the years!

I have owned 2 door cars fitted with both types of mounting. One superseded the other.

[geoberni]

There is no real mystery Bernie. Stephen's picture shows his car which is a later model with the later seatbelt mounting built into the rail. The picture in the workshop manual shows the earlier mounting - using a bracket bolted into mountings underneath the body rail.
Even the Minor 1000 underwent the occasional bit of development over the years!

I have owned 2 door cars fitted with both types of mounting. One superseded the other.

Well every day's a school day.
When (year?) did the 'later mounting' get introduced?
I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

[ManyMinors]

When (year?) did the 'later mounting' get introduced?
I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

I had a 1968 2door car which had the later mounting built into the rail - the same as Stephen's photo shows, so I would guess it must have been 1967ish?
I think it was probably around the same time as the seatbelt mounting in the 4door and Traveller models was dropped to a new "mid" position in the pillar as opposed to the previous arrangement of having one mounting too high and a second one too low! This was a hang over from the days when the trafficator was mounted within the pillar and prevented the seatbelt being fitted where it would ideally have been!

[Bill_qaz]

My 1962 4 door no trafficator has the fixing point too high, it's level with door tops. It put the belt too high on the neck so I had to fit drop plates.

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