Rear brake drum won't slide up to the hub

[JAD337]

Hi, I have a 1955 saloon and I am currently addressing a number of brake issues. I have fitted new shoes on the rear and last week I refitted the drum on the offside, no problem. I then started on the nearside and went back to the offside to check something and removed the drum. I realised I hadn't used the correct holes in the shoes. I left it until today and got everything sorted and went to put the drum back on - usual problem getting the shoes in position, but then the drum slid over them okay, but stopped short of the hub. There's like a metal against metal sound when it stops, but I can't see anything out of place to stop it. It's about half an inch short.
Any ideas? I wondered if the low temperatures might be responsible, but it seems a bit unlikely.

[svenedin]

You’ll have to take the drum off again to discover what has happened. Did you fit the beehive shoe retaining springs? I suspect a shoe has jumped out of the slot on the cylinder side.

Stephen

[JAD337]

Thanks Stephen
No, there are no beehive springs. I read somewhere that fitting the springs on the inside of the shoes did the job of the beehive springs. There were none in place anyway.
I've just had another look and I think it is hitting a raised area on the back plate near the top.I think the cylinder has slid down out of position, or the back plate is too high? I've given up for today, I'll have another go over the weekend.

[les]

The cylinder should move up/down, adjust accordingly, hopefully that’s the problem

[Bill_qaz]

pictures would help us to help you

[svenedin]

Did someone say beehive springs? Oh it was me. Run and hide!

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

Did someone say beehive springs? Oh it was me. Run and hide!

Stephen

To bee or not to bee, springs to mind

[oliver90owner]

News Flash - braking story!

[quote=Bill_qaz post

To bee or not to bee, springs to mind
[/quote]


Good one, Bill. What a flash of inspiration! ‘Drum’ming up some hilarity even if it is a load of old cobblers (cordwainers?).

[JAD337]

Good morning everyone. Thanks for your input, even the bee ones!
Didn't have chance to work on the car yesterday. This morning I checked the cylinder position and it was as high as it would go. I did a few attempts at getting the drum on and it got closer. So I used the wheel huts, turned around, to coax it further and suddenly it moved of its own accord and went on fully. As you might expect, it was very difficult to turn the wheel, but a couple of pulls on the hand brake freed it enough for me to turn it, the adjuster at minimum.
Quit while I'm winning I think!
However, I don't like not knowing why this occurred. I got the old shoes and checked them against the new ones (from ESM). The old ones were Borg and Beck. They appear to be shorter in length than the ESM shoes. When I started this job, the adjusters were at maximum and the shoes (not fully worn, but had diff oil on them - that's last year's story!) were still not in contact with the drum. I bought the car in November 2024, with no brakes. They had failed on the previous lady owner and she was skilled enough to stop and limp home. She had had the brakes overhauled that summer by a local garage. When I investigated the cause of the brake failure I found a leaking union at the back of this same wheel. So, I assume this garage had decided on Borg and Beck shoes, maybe because they had the same problem or maybe not. And they forgot to tighten the union.
Any further comments would be welcome, especially if you can also tell me how to include pictures in my posts!
Many thanks again.
John

[svenedin]

The only REAR shoes now available from ESM are unbranded generic shoes. It may well be that these are not exactly the same size as the Borg and Beck ones that you replaced.

I recently had to replace both rear cylinders which was going from a pattern part to the Lockheed/Delphi rear cylinders that ESM sell (1962-1971 3/4" bore). This caused unexpected problems with the handbrake. The handbrake should always be off and either totally disconnected from the cylinder or the cable obviously slack when adjusting the brakes. I did this but with the new cylinders both sides of the car I found the handbrake was not effective and it needed adjusting to tighten the cable.

Usually, the reason that it is difficult to get the drum back on after replacing the shoes is that they are not centralised. It is worth offering up the drum and if it binds pushing the shoes sideways in whatever direction makes it easier to put the drum back on. The handbrake cable MUST be completely slack. Any tension on the cable will be pulling on the cylinder handbrake arm and the piston will not be fully retracted.

Regarding the cylinder, this must be able to slide in the backplate. Maybe it was stuck. If the cylinder is stuck in the backplate it must be freed off and then sparing copper brake grease applied to the backplate where the cylinder makes contact to aid the sliding action.

A less likely cause is the drum being warped. This is more likely to happen to a front drum and happens when the drum is very hot and suddenly cooled such as when driving through a puddle.

Stephen

[JAD337]

I should have known I would have problems with the nearside as well!
This time I can't even get the drum over the shoes. They are definitely slightly too big. Is this a known problem? Is filing a bit off the ends a viable solution?
And guess what I found lying underneath the axle near the wheel......a dead bee! Sting in the tale or what!

[svenedin]

I should have known I would have problems with the nearside as well!
This time I can't even get the drum over the shoes. They are definitely slightly too big. Is this a known problem? Is filing a bit off the ends a viable solution?
And guess what I found lying underneath the axle near the wheel......a dead bee! Sting in the tale or what!

I'm not aware of it being a "known" problem. More commonly people complain that they can't adjust up the new shoes enough.

Are you sure you have everything put together properly? You know that at the rear one shoe is leading and the other trailing? This is so that there is braking when travelling in reverse. The front shoes are both leading. Is the adjuster spindle properly located in the slot in the shoe?

A rear brake shoe axle set consists of 4 shoes which are 2 pairs of shoes. They are not 4 interchangeable shoes.

Stephen

Untitled.jpg (283.08 KiB) Viewed 29208 times

[JAD337]

Yes, the shoes are fitted as per the picture, the lower shoe having the slot for the adjuster bar. And as far as I can tell, the bar is in the slot. The shoes are the right way round, the end that protrudes out more is on the adjuster

They are the 7" all models shoes sold by ESM.
The Borg and Beck shoes are definitely slightly smaller, but as I said, they failed to touch the drum even on full adjustment.
Maybe I'll speak to ESM tomorrow and see if they have encountered the problem.

[geoberni]

I read somewhere that fitting the springs on the inside of the shoes did the job of the beehive springs. There were none in place anyway.

Well that's a contender for tallest tale ever heard.... The Beehive are there to stop the shoes juddering.
Basil's Beehives were very loose with old age.
The New Shoes I fitted developed a very strange surface wear appear.....
No juddering with new beehives fitted.

Shoe wear.JPG (161.28 KiB) Viewed 29051 times

[Mervin]

I had a similar issue with the front brakes.
With the adjusters fully "off" the drum would install, with difficulty, but the new shoes were binding heavily. On checking I found the new shoes were just that bit too long. After grinding a small amount off each end that did the trick.

[mike1864]

If the previous shoes were too small, could someone have possibly fitted oversized adjustment worms to compensate?
These would then be wrong for the right size shoes.
ISTR the worms do come in different sizes, perhaps to match later (8") front drums. But I'll defer to experts for the dimensions.

[JAD337]

Thanks for the replies.
I take note of Basil's beehive problems. I haven't had that pattern on the shoes, or any noticeable judder, but for completeness I will get some springs and fit them.
The adjusters look like originals, they've certainly been on the car for some time, but I'll keep it in mind.
Glad to hear that grinding the shoes is a workable solution, so I may come back to that.
On Monday I was in Lincoln and I popped into Rimmers and told them the problem. They had 7" shoes for Sprites that they thought would fit okay, so I bought them on sale or return. On comparing them to the Borg and Beck shoes, they look identical, so I am going to try them. I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks again everyone.

[svenedin]

The earlier cars had 7" brakes front and back so the adjusters are interchangeable. Later cars had 8" front brakes and 7" rear brakes and the adjusters are not interchangeable. The 8" front adjusters are too big for the rear. To confuse matters, there are (or were) some "oversize" adjusters available which were designed for worn drums that had been skimmed. The masks can wear where the spindle sits, cutting the slot deeper giving problems with adjustment. Less commonly, the adjuster cam wears causing it to slip out from the adjusting click-steps.

Stephen

[geoberni]

Thanks for the replies.
I take note of Basil's beehive problems. I haven't had that pattern on the shoes, or any noticeable judder, but for completeness I will get some springs and fit them.
The adjusters look like originals, they've certainly been on the car for some time, but I'll keep it in mind.
Glad to hear that grinding the shoes is a workable solution, so I may come back to that.
On Monday I was in Lincoln and I popped into Rimmers and told them the problem. They had 7" shoes for Sprites that they thought would fit okay, so I bought them on sale or return. On comparing them to the Borg and Beck shoes, they look identical, so I am going to try them. I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks again everyone.

The Sprite ones should fit. Pt No GBS819AF crops up TO FIT MIDGET I, MINOR 1000, MINOR SERIES II, SPRITE I, SPRITE II, with a number of advertisers.
Later Midget & Sprite models are presumably different because they changed braking systems from Single to Dual circuit.

[mike1864]

The earlier cars had 7" brakes front and back so the adjusters are interchangeable. Later cars had 8" front brakes and 7" rear brakes and the adjusters are not interchangeable. The 8" front adjusters are too big for the rear. To confuse matters, there are (or were) some "oversize" adjusters available which were designed for worn drums that had been skimmed. The masks can wear where the spindle sits, cutting the slot deeper giving problems with adjustment. Less commonly, the adjuster cam wears causing it to slip out from the adjusting click-steps.

Stephen

I've got no problems with my shoes. But just to check I've got the right adjusters front and back (from my conversion to 8", 45 years ago), can Stephen measure the height range of both variants (assuming he has both types loose; I don't expect him to dismantle his own brakes!)
I have a micrometer.