Which new wiring loom.

[BobM]

Hi,
After a bare metal rebuild of my 1970 Traveller, I am about to order a new wiring loom from ESM. However they offer options for both Dynamo or Alternator.
Given I intend to fit an alternator, should I fit the alternator loom or stay with the original dynamo type loom and wire up as a conversion? Thoughts.

BobM

[svenedin]

That depends on whether you think you or any subsequent owner will want to put it back as original with a dynamo. Personally I have never seen any reasonable justification for an alternator.....Nasty Chinese junk. Stick with a genuine Lucas dynamo. It will last for ever with proper maintenance.

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

That depends on whether you think you or any subsequent owner will want to put it back as original with a dynamo. Personally I have never seen any reasonable justification for an alternator.....Nasty Chinese junk. Stick with a genuine Lucas dynamo. It will last for ever with proper maintenance.

Stephen

Or fit a non Chinese junk alternator, well over 100K on modern car with no alternator issues so should be no different on a Minor

[HARBER07]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

[svenedin]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

If reliability is the argument an original Lucas C40 dynamo wins every time! I have had my dynamo professionally stripped and overhauled once in 37 years.

Stephen

[svenedin]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

Yes there is a reason. Sell more alternators and fleece the customers

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

If reliability is the argument an original Lucas C40 dynamo wins every time! I have had my dynamo professionally stripped and overhauled once in 37 years.

Stephen

So what makes you think an alternator would not of lasted the same time/ mileage as your dynamo. Are you basing it on your experience only?
By late 60s most UK cars used alternators even BMC.
With acr not needing the separate regulator.
If you want to keep you car 100% original then that's fine but even you don't Stephen from you posts. Anything is reversible but why if you wanted the modification in first place.
After almost 60 years in the industry I personally don't except the dynamo is more reliable than the alternator, but to each there own its your car, your taste,your choice.

[myoldjalopy]

The arguments for why an alternator are well-rehearsed by now, but there is a school of thought that a dynamo is more robust and easier to fix than an alternator. But if you have lots of additional electrical gadgets fitted, an alternator is gonna be better at keeping your battery charged

[svenedin]

What lets the dynamo down is the RB106 control box. It was never very good at regulating charging with the 2 bobbin design (later, more sophisticated control boxes used 3 bobbins). There is a lot of technical information on the RB106 that can be found that discusses its shortcomings. What further tarnishes the reputation of the dynamo are Far East C40 copies and dreadful quality RB106 copies. If you could only have Far East rubbish dynamos and RB106 copies then there is no question that a high quality alternator would be more reliable. What I was referring to in terms of reliability were the originals. These dynamos are simple to maintain (e.g change brushes) and they just go on and on with no fuss at all.

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

The arguments for why an alternator are well-rehearsed by now, but there is a school of thought that a dynamo is more robust and easier to fix than an alternator. But if you have lots of additional electrical gadgets fitted, an alternator is gonna be better at keeping your battery charged

True but I believe the poor quality of many replacement parts helps corrupt the opinions of what's reliable or robust.

[myoldjalopy]

The weak link in the dynamo charging system nowadays is the poor quality of the replacement control boxes, rather than the dynamo itself.

[svenedin]

The weak link in the dynamo charging system nowadays is the poor quality of the replacement control boxes, rather than the dynamo itself.

Yes absolutely. NOS original RB106 control boxes can be found though. It takes some hunting. Or often a really shabby (broken plastic) RB106 will reveal pristine internals so two can be made into one perfect RB106.

Stephen

[geoberni]

By late 60s most UK cars used alternators even BMC.
With acr not needing the separate regulator.
If you want to keep you car 100% original then that's fine but even you don't Stephen from you posts. Anything is reversible but why if you wanted the modification in first place.
After almost 60 years in the industry I personally don't except the dynamo is more reliable than the alternator, but to each there own its your car, your taste,your choice.

I think you're a little bit ahead of yourself there; they were certainly rolling out in the mid 60s UK, but it was early 70s before they were becoming universal, simply driven by the need for more capacity in the electrical system, especially on the larger engine size vehicles.
I can't speak for BMC, I never had one in those days, but saying that 'even BMC' had alternators as standard implies others were ahead of them.

My first car was a 1969 Ford Escort Mk 1, the Escort only launched in '68, yet the Mk1 had a Dynamo.
The Cortina had Dynamo as standard until the Mk3 arrived in 1970.
Vauxhall Viva had dynamo until the HC in 1970.
Vauxhall Victor FD (ceased production 1972?) was Dynamo on the 1600, alternator on 2000.
Hillman Imp (63-76) another with dynamo throughout it's production.

Those are just examples I know of, either from personal ownership or friend/family vehicles.
Dynamos were much cheaper than alternators and until greater electrical capacity was required, there was no need to change.
The USA fitted Alternators pretty much universally from circa 1960, simply because of the wide use of things like air-con, which was never to be seen on UK vehicles...

[Bill_qaz]

By late 60s most UK cars used alternators even BMC.
With acr not needing the separate regulator.
If you want to keep you car 100% original then that's fine but even you don't Stephen from you posts. Anything is reversible but why if you wanted the modification in first place.
After almost 60 years in the industry I personally don't except the dynamo is more reliable than the alternator, but to each there own its your car, your taste,your choice.

I think you're a little bit ahead of yourself there; they were certainly rolling out in the mid 60s UK, but it was early 70s before they were becoming universal, simply driven by the need for more capacity in the electrical system, especially on the larger engine size vehicles.
I can't speak for BMC, I never had one in those days, but saying that 'even BMC' had alternators as standard implies others were ahead of them.

My first car was a 1969 Ford Escort Mk 1, the Escort only launched in '68, yet the Mk1 had a Dynamo.
The Cortina had Dynamo as standard until the Mk3 arrived in 1970.
Vauxhall Viva had dynamo until the HC in 1970.
Vauxhall Victor FD (ceased production 1972?) was Dynamo on the 1600, alternator on 2000.
Hillman Imp (63-76) another with dynamo throughout it's production.

Those are just examples I know of, either from personal ownership or friend/family vehicles.
Dynamos were much cheaper than alternators and until greater electrical capacity was required, there was no need to change.
The USA fitted Alternators pretty much universally from circa 1960, simply because of the wide use of things like air-con, which was never to be seen on UK vehicles...

Source:
Alternators and Dynamos https://share.google/PbsHr1p6wqotrHHbG

MGB MK2 1967 had alternator ACR version in 1969

Jaguar in 1964

I worked for the BL truck division and we had them from 1967

[geoberni]

Source:
Alternators and Dynamos https://share.google/PbsHr1p6wqotrHHbG

MGB MK2 1967 had alternator ACR version in 1969

Jaguar in 1964

I worked for the BL truck division and we had them from 1967

As I said, they were increasingly fitted as the need for greater electrical capacity was identified for specific models, but not universally fitted until the need for more electrical power required their adoption. Brighter headlamps, Radio Cassettes (8 Tracks ) Fog Lights all added to the electrical load.
Even the Minor had them as factory fit for specific customers as requested from the mid 60s, using the Lucas 11AC, which was in use on RR, Bentley, Jaguar models at the time.

[BobM]

'Even the Minor had them as factory fit for specific customers as requested from the mid 60s, using the Lucas 11AC'

Returning to the original question, which loom? Is it possible that the alternator loom supplied by ESM is not compatible with an ACR installation.

Incidentally my reasoning for fitting an alternator goes back to a snow storm on January night in 1968. Twenty miles into a hundred mile journey, I had to stop for fuel and had to have a push start to resume my journey. Naturally in those conditions every electrical system had been on, including a small after market screen heater that helped to keep the screen from freezing inside. The journey was completed in a very cold car with minimum electrics and frequent stops to remove ice and snow. Before anyone suggests otherwise the charging system was fine. I have a number of reconditioned original ACR alternators on the shelf. So modern quality problems at least do not effect this aspect of the restoration. The car that night, an Austin A35. Bought for £55 and restored before being pressed into service. Old habits die hard.

Thanks for your thoughts. BobM

[Bill_qaz]

May be best to ask ESM directly, which application their loom is made for.
My ACR doesn’t have a purchased loom just modified connection at the OE regulator which of course it doesn't use.
It was like this when i bought the car.

[HARBER07]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

If reliability is the argument an original Lucas C40 dynamo wins every time! I have had my dynamo professionally stripped and overhauled once in 37 years.

Stephen

Time isn’t really a very good response in my book, you can have a NOS alternator sat in a box for 45 years and it won’t require any maintenance.

Most modern vehicles will last 150-200k miles with their factory fit alternator before requiring replacement. I doubt many minors have seen that sort of mileage. I know these are old cars but it doesn’t mean that serviceability and maintenance items should also be stuck the past. Things have moved on, but i understand there will always be resistance to change.

[svenedin]

There’s a reason why anything built in the last 40 years or so doesn’t come with a dynamo.

It depends as said whether you’re ever likely to want it changed back to original. Personally I like to have reliability and minimal maintenance, as it makes the car more enjoyable, so I’d fit the alternator loom.

If reliability is the argument an original Lucas C40 dynamo wins every time! I have had my dynamo professionally stripped and overhauled once in 37 years.

Stephen

Time isn’t really a very good response in my book, you can have a NOS alternator sat in a box for 45 years and it won’t require any maintenance.

Most modern vehicles will last 150-200k miles with their factory fit alternator before requiring replacement. I doubt many minors have seen that sort of mileage. I know these are old cars but it doesn’t mean that serviceability and maintenance items should also be stuck the past. Things have moved on, but i understand there will always be resistance to change.

True. My car might have been sitting doing nothing for all of those years. Actually it did have a long sleep so that is a fair point but it has been driven a lot by me. NOS stuff like that would likely have the bearings totally dried out so would require some work to recommission.

I just don't like the look of alternators in the engine bay. I take my car to lots of shows and an alternator screams out as totally out of place. I also don't want to change from positive earth and positive earth alternators are very rare beasts.

Stephen

[myoldjalopy]

Interesting - I have to say I don't have strong opinions on this either way. I have owned four Minors over the years, one had an alternator and the other three had dynamos. I didn't bother swapping out any of them for an alternate charging system because, even though I generally prefer originality, I wasn't going to faff around changing back to a dynamo. There's always plenty of other jobs to do! The alternator did fail and have to be replaced once, and I have had issues with the cheap control box replacements on one of the cars with dynamos (my current one )