Fitting new brakes and cylinders

[svenedin]

Yes Berni yours looked good, mine from a different supplier were impossible to fit as the open end of the hook was longer than the gap on backplate. I initially left them off as it had none fitted when i took it apart, so had no OE spring to compare with. Once I figured out the issue and shortened them they went on easily just using pliers.
Screenshot_20251112-173611_Samsung Internet.jpg
It gets annoying how many of the pattern parts sold are either not to spec or poor quality. The problem with mail order is you can't see the item in the flesh and it's often is not what is shown in the description.

Absolutely. What annoys me even more is that the suppliers carry on selling the faulty parts even after numerous customers have complained! They treat us as if we are fools. It's like a cafe selling a ham sandwich and a customer complaining that it isn't a ham sandwich it's beef. The waiter says sorry and then does exactly the same thing to the next customer!

Stephen

[ttwlr]

Yes Berni yours looked good, mine from a different supplier were impossible to fit as the open end of the hook was longer than the gap on backplate. I initially left them off as it had none fitted when i took it apart, so had no OE spring to compare with. Once I figured out the issue and shortened them they went on easily just using pliers.
Screenshot_20251112-173611_Samsung Internet.jpg
It gets annoying how many of the pattern parts sold are either not to spec or poor quality. The problem with mail order is you can't see the item in the flesh and it's often is not what is shown in the description.

Mine didn't have any, do the help it anyway ?

[svenedin]

Yes Berni yours looked good, mine from a different supplier were impossible to fit as the open end of the hook was longer than the gap on backplate. I initially left them off as it had none fitted when i took it apart, so had no OE spring to compare with. Once I figured out the issue and shortened them they went on easily just using pliers.
Screenshot_20251112-173611_Samsung Internet.jpg
It gets annoying how many of the pattern parts sold are either not to spec or poor quality. The problem with mail order is you can't see the item in the flesh and it's often is not what is shown in the description.

Mine didn't have any, do the help it anyway ?

Oh dear, I see flashing lights and I can hear a klaxon. It's the argument keywords "beehive springs" again

BMC fitted beehive springs for a reason so yes they are supposed to be there. They can be tricky to fit so some people don't bother. Their job is to hold the shoes against the backplate.

Stephen

[les]

They hold the shoes against the back plate, some folk leave them off because they find them difficult to fit, not a particularly good reason however !

[les]

Sorry Stephen, you posted as I was writing !

[ttwlr]

Oh no what have I started
I'm sure I see some in my spares box, so I'll give it ago, as you say, was there for a reason.

Yes Berni yours looked good, mine from a different supplier were impossible to fit as the open end of the hook was longer than the gap on backplate. I initially left them off as it had none fitted when i took it apart, so had no OE spring to compare with. Once I figured out the issue and shortened them they went on easily just using pliers.
Screenshot_20251112-173611_Samsung Internet.jpg
It gets annoying how many of the pattern parts sold are either not to spec or poor quality. The problem with mail order is you can't see the item in the flesh and it's often is not what is shown in the description.

Mine didn't have any, do the help it anyway ?

Oh dear, I see flashing lights and I can hear a klaxon. It's the argument keywords "beehive springs" again

BMC fitted beehive springs for a reason so yes they are supposed to be there. They can be tricky to fit so some people don't bother. Their job is to hold the shoes against the backplate.

Stephen

[svenedin]

Sorry Stephen, you posted as I was writing !

We both said the same thing!

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

Having spent my whole working life in various parts of the motor industry, I'm positive if the manufacturer fitted them it was for good reason.
If we could avoid fitting a washer it was a cost saving x output = more profit.
Common on drumbrakes in various designs even on trucks and buses often referred to as anti rattle.

[svenedin]

Every time this subject is raised, I have wondered why beehive springs are fitted at the back but not on the front brakes.

I think the answer is in section M23 of the workshop manual. The early shoe abutment pads "show a tendency to tear away from the backplate". The beehive springs would help to reduce any side load on the abutment pad. Later backplates have the abutment pad welded in position. The front shoes are retained by the cylinders as there is no abutment pad.

Stephen

[ttwlr]

Found 3 original and 3 new types, but bit off new one, just about to fit, got one new one on, bottom one driving me mad, just not having it.

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If you are replacing the beehive springs, the hooks on replacements are too long. Put them in vice or vive grips and use a hacksaw to shorten the hook, it makes fitting much easier, more like originals.
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[ttwlr]

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Done

[Bill_qaz]

Well done

[ttwlr]

Well done

Thanks for the cutting tip,

[svenedin]

Marvellous. Well done!

Leave the handbrake disconnected and adjust the brakes. Give some hard pedal presses to centralise the shoes and then go to the adjuster. Then connect the handbrake cable and check it. It should be possible to rotate the drums with heavy effort on the 3rd click of the handbrake pawl. The braking must be equal on both sides. Usually it is not necessary to adjust the handbrake but I found I had to after changing the cylinders. The brakes must be adjusted correctly BEFORE touching the handbrake adjustment.

Stephen

[ttwlr]

Thank you Steven, I shall keep that in mind when doing them.

[geoberni]

Every time this subject is raised, I have wondered why beehive springs are fitted at the back but not on the front brakes.

I think the answer is in section M23 of the workshop manual. The early shoe abutment pads "show a tendency to tear away from the backplate". The beehive springs would help to reduce any side load on the abutment pad. Later backplates have the abutment pad welded in position. The front shoes are retained by the cylinders as there is no abutment pad.

Stephen

The far greater mystery is why nobody has retaining springs on the front brakes and the backing plates do not even have holes for retaining spring pins, yet the parts manual details them....

front retainer.JPG (101.2 KiB) Viewed 11511 times

ESM even sell the spring (17H7969) and Retainer (17H7971), but not the pins......
.
.
LCV have the same parts from early 1962 period...

LCV Front.JPG (53.16 KiB) Viewed 11511 times

All I know is that my car has been retrofitted with latter 8" fronts and there are no holes for fitting that type of retainer spring.

[svenedin]

Every time this subject is raised, I have wondered why beehive springs are fitted at the back but not on the front brakes.

I think the answer is in section M23 of the workshop manual. The early shoe abutment pads "show a tendency to tear away from the backplate". The beehive springs would help to reduce any side load on the abutment pad. Later backplates have the abutment pad welded in position. The front shoes are retained by the cylinders as there is no abutment pad.

Stephen

The far greater mystery is why nobody has retaining springs on the front brakes and the backing plates do not even have holes for retaining spring pins, yet the parts manual details them....
front retainer.JPG
ESM even sell the spring (17H7969) and Retainer (17H7971), but not the pins......
.
.
LCV have the same parts from early 1962 period...
LCV Front.JPG

All I know is that my car has been retrofitted with latter 8" fronts and there are no holes for fitting that type of retainer spring.

Yes and if you look at workshop manual figure M23 there is an illustration of the front brakes and no retaining springs are shown. It is an illustration of 7" front brakes because it says "front shoes are interchangeable with rear leading shoes" which is only possible with 7" front brakes.

Stephen

[myoldjalopy]

They hold the shoes against the back plate, some folk leave them off because they find them difficult to fit, not a particularly good reason however !

I've never fitted them, not because they are difficult to fit, but because none of my cars ever had them - and I have never had any issues without them.....and that's going back over 40 years!

[svenedin]

They hold the shoes against the back plate, some folk leave them off because they find them difficult to fit, not a particularly good reason however !

I've never fitted them, not because they are difficult to fit, but because none of my cars ever had them - and I have never had any issues without them.....and that's going back over 40 years!

In actual fact, during my ownership my car ran without beehive springs for over 30 years. It didn't have them fitted when I got the car and I didn't know any better. Then I became convinced that they must have some important purpose so I fitted them but the reality is I have never heard a very convincing argument about what that important purpose is. I agree with the argument that BMC wouldn't have used them unless they were important and would have deleted them to save a few pennies but no engineer has ever told me why they are there!

Stephen

[geoberni]

In actual fact, during my ownership my car ran without beehive springs for over 30 years. It didn't have them fitted when I got the car and I didn't know any better. Then I became convinced that they must have some important purpose so I fitted them but the reality is I have never heard a very convincing argument about what that important purpose is. I agree with the argument that BMC wouldn't have used them unless they were important and would have deleted them to save a few pennies but no engineer has ever told me why they are there!

Stephen

They basically hold the shoes in place against the backing plate.
The reasons for fitting them can be varied, depending on what is found during prototype development and road tests, but they were very common with drum brakes, most cars had them on the front and rear.
Shoes can slip, slide, jump, judder, any unfavourable movement is eliminated by the retaining springs.

Last year I fitted new ones to the rear of Basil, because they were very different lengths and not serving much purpose.

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I'd fitted new shoes all round a few months earlier and I wasn't happy with a bit of Judder that was evident.
The rears were giving a very odd wear pattern, consistent with judder.....

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