Front Brake Banjo Bolt problem

[gtt1951]

Thanks Stephen,
Just been putting the replacement cylinder on the backplate, when I noticed something strange with the other one and it would explain why I had problems removing the hub - the piston won't go all the way down as the top, mask holder/guide, is askew

Looks like my work isn't over and that the cylinder is slightly different to the ones I've bought and the ones on the ESM website.
I knew that this car was going to be a project car, but didn't realise by how much a project!

I'll be taking a break (sic).

G.

[svenedin]

Frustrating as it may seem it will give you time to clean up and paint the backplate

My knowledge of Lowlights is non-existent really. If you do need rare brake parts try speaking to Paul Hunt of PowerTrack Ltd. He is very knowledgeable and the company have the largest stock of brake parts for classic British cars in the UK. https://www.powertrackbrakes.co.uk Paul supplied me with the correct British made cylinders for Wolseley 1500 brakes.

Stephen

[gtt1951]

I'm going to have to replace the right-hand cylinder as well, since the previous owner/owners fitted "refurbished" cylinders, but the RH one has been fitted with a left hand piston!

Wrong piston.jpg (405.95 KiB) Viewed 5299 times

Note the cut-out faces left and doesn't go over the cylinder body, thus stopping it from fully seating.

As an aside, out of the 2 Made in USA 5/16"W open-ended spanners I was using, the one on the left fits, but the one on the right is a touch too small for the new banjo bolt. Whereas on the other "original" bolt, the LH spanner is a trifle loose and the RH one fits like a glove.

Spanner doesn't fit.jpg (1007.49 KiB) Viewed 5299 times

And so it goes on

George.

[svenedin]

Be of good cheer George. You're getting there. I got disheartened with my recent works but the good folks of this forum jollied me along. You will learn stuff that not only helps you with your car but you will be able to help others. It's all part of owning these rather elderly cars. They've had long lives and a lot of make do and mend. Many of them wouldn't have survived at all if it hadn't been for the somewhat dubious bodges of the past. One of my other hobbies is clockmaking and watchmaking. There's a lot of bodging that has gone on there in days long past and it always takes longer to work out what the bodge was and put it right.

Stephen

[gtt1951]

Thanks Stephen,
I have, in my time as a member, also helped others with some of my posts so know quite well how very helpful the forum can be.
Such a shame that BMCEcosse passed away - he was a very knowledgeable and helpful person.
It is also a shame that so much of what I posted over the years has lost its useful images (on changing websites).

I've had to call a halt to any more work today as I haven't done my back any good whilst struggling to replace the brake shoes - not done this whilst sitting on a stool before.

Back in place.jpg (1.06 MiB) Viewed 5265 times

The 2nd cylinder's banjo bolt came out without having to use any heat at all - great! Just used one of the 2 1/4"W spanners.

LH backplate with 2 replacement cylinders.jpg (1.2 MiB) Viewed 5265 times

Replacement cylinder with correct piston.jpg (621.5 KiB) Viewed 5265 times

I was wrong about the "wrong piston", earlier, the piston with the incorrect top was from a RH cylinder intended for the OSF backplate.

Next, the hub goes on and I bleed the system.

Regards,

George.

[svenedin]

Are those the correct springs on the early cars? The later cars have the type with the coils and a straight piece with no coils which I understand is so that the piston cannot get stuck on a coil. Good luck with the bleeding. I found I did have some leaks once there was fluid and pressure in the system and actually from the banjos which in later cars are just at the rear. The photo is actually of Wolseley 1500 front brakes but the standard Minor 8" brakes have the same type of spring arrangement.

IMG_1620.jpeg (1.73 MiB) Viewed 5244 times

[svenedin]

Yes it is a shame about BMCEcosse. I read his posts for many years even before I joined the forum. It is also a shame that so many posts are now lacking their very helpful photographs.

I ended up with BMCEcosse's famous Wolseley 1500 brakes. Although I didn't know they were his when I bought them, I knew very soon after.....Sadly, Roy's beloved Traveller was wrecked and scrapped for parts and that is how I ended up with his brakes. The story I was told was that the car fell from a rotisserie and was so badly damaged it had to be scrapped. That is very sad and Roy would be horrified but parts of his car live on in other Minors around the country so that is something at least.

Stephen

[gtt1951]

I remember those sorts of springs on the 8" drums I had on my first Moggy. All my current cars have 7" drums (in the case of the 2 oldest cars these are combined hubs/drums).
Just checked my picture gallery and the front brakes on my High-light 1951 car had been modified to take the later backplate with more modern cylinders and the springs are like yours.
The back brakes on the high-light have the old aluminium bodied cylinders and different springs.

Image2421.jpg (536.86 KiB) Viewed 5209 times

The springs on the low-light are those the car came with.

My traveller also has the special springs that keep the shoes against the backplate (those holes that are in the middle of the shoe arches) - but I don't have any pictures.

George.

[svenedin]

Thanks for the explanation. Oh yes Beehive springs. My car has those at the rear. Best not to mention them!

Stephen

[gtt1951]

Car back on the road, but will need a bit more brake bleeding as pedal feels a bit spongy - difficult to do a one-man bleeding operation, even though I used one of those bleed pipes with a non-return valve that is submerged a jam jar.
I think that some of the new bleeding kits are not compatible with the Morris chassis leg master cylinder location - unless someone knows differently?

Good 2 have 4 wheels back on the ground (it is the green one on the left of the signature - moire patterning makes the grille look like an MO).

Thanks to all that advised me,

George.

[svenedin]

Lot of stuff on here about brake bleeding. You can get an Eezibleed kit which uses pressure from the spare tyre to force brake fluid through the system. This is brilliant for one-man operation as it overcomes a big problem of Minor brake bleeding which is the very small reservoir of fluid in the master cylinder. It also enables easy leak detection whilst the system is pressurised. The problem is you have to make your own cap for the master cylinder as none of the caps in the Eezibleed kit are suitable. Various posts on here about how to modify a non-vented master cylinder cap to enable use of this system. Or you can use a Vizibleed which is cheap and works well but you have to top up the mc frequently. Some people use vacuum bleeding but again the mc capacity is small. I used Eezibleed and it was fine except I detected some leaks which of course I rectified first. Even though the brakes were not spongy at all, for the sake of my own paranoia I finished off with the two man system!

Stephen

[philthehill]

The non vented master cylinder cap from ESM is ideal.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/brake ... it-p829339
You do have to drill and tap the cap to suit the Ezibleed pipe but well worth the effort.

[gtt1951]

I had been using one of my old Vizibleed kits, but the ball-valve (non-return valve) was giving me problems in that it was sticking, so the rubber pipe connector and also the see-through bleed tube blew off a couple of times
I do have another Vizibleed pipe, but will certainly look into the Eezibleed system and ESM's master cylinder cap (my Traveller and my 1951 Hilight need brake works too).
I have a Halfrauds about 2 miles down the road (they stock the Gunson G4062 kit.

Thanks folks,

George.

[gtt1951]

So,
I bought the last Gunsons Eezibleed kit that my local Halfrouds had in stock.

Gunson bleed kit.jpg (1.43 MiB) Viewed 3504 times

I never gave any thought to the mention of "vented cap2 until I found the original Master Cylinder that I had removed from this car.

Original Master.jpg (988.63 KiB) Viewed 3504 times

I thought i would save myself some money by drilling out the original cap - wrong!

Vented cap.jpg (385.29 KiB) Viewed 3504 times

It is vented, so I will have to buy the non-vented cap from ESM, that Phil had pointed me at. They won't be able to process the order until tomorrow, so I should have it by Tuesday and then it will need drilling and tapping. This will mean that I will have a better system to then use on my other Moggies as and when I work on their brakes.

Thanks folks,

George.

[svenedin]

The thread size is not one most people will have a tap for in the garage. Drill 8.75mm hole and tap 1/8" x 28 BSP.

Or drill so that the union will go into the cap and secure air tight with epoxy.

I found that the unvented cap was not terribly well made. It did not thread particularly well onto my master cylinder and it did leak a bit at the union of cap and cylinder when under pressure from the Eezibleed. This was not really a concern for me as I use Silicone brake fluid but ordinary brake fluid is unpleasant stuff. The leak just dripped out of the chassis member onto the garage floor.

Don't use too much pressure in the spare tyre. 10 psi was enough for me to detect a few leaks (from me not tightening unions up tight enough) and to enable easy bleeding.

It is a really good system and definitely worth the effort to modify a MC cap.

Stephen

[gtt1951]

Now you tell me about the quality of the cap - I ordered it before I saw your post.

Just checked my "unusual" tap and die set and I do have a 1/8 x 28 BSP tap - hurrah! I also have the matching die.

Just as well I was "bequeathed" a Myford 7 Lathe (it is set up in my "conservatory") and I will use that to hold the cap whilst I drill.
The amount to drill is quite a depth and I'm wondering if I should reduce the inner part of the cap before drilling through.
I do have a Milling cross-slide which I have never used before, so will leave that out.

Not sure if I will have this car ready for the local classic Car show on Monday May 5th.

G.

[svenedin]

It may just have been an issue with the cap I was sent. I do not have a lathe or a pillar drill but managed to drill through the cap (slowly and with lubricant) with an ordinary cordless drill and the cap held in a vice. Not ideal but it worked. I used a bit of Permatex on the threads of the Eezibleed brass pipe adapter.

Stephen

[gtt1951]

Stephen,
I received my cap yesterday, but it had great trouble fitting the Master Cylinder that I had taken out of this car a few years ago.
I called our friends in East Sussex and they suggested that I use a rotary brass brush (used my dremel) to remove the coating off the threads.
This did not work and the cap only goes on about half its thread depth.

I have an awful feeling that the thread is slightly tapered (see pics)

CM250430-095751003.jpg (225.07 KiB) Viewed 1556 times

but using a caliper and a jewellers eyepiece, I cannot put my hand on heart and say that the original cap has a taper.
I will uncover my project car, today, and access its Master Cylinder to see if it fits in there, as the 1950 MC (that I removed) may well have thread problems beyond the depth that the normal cap goes down to.
I had tried the old trick of working the cap backwards and forward, but it then just jams after a certain point, as it would if the thread were tapered

By the way, the cap I received looks a lot better than the image on the website, is coated black and is made of aluminium.

Cap comparison.jpg (450.91 KiB) Viewed 1556 times

George.

[gtt1951]

Bad news - the new mc cap fits, the old MC cap fit but the non-vented cap only goes in a part turn into the new MC

New MC.jpg (276.52 KiB) Viewed 1367 times

Cap off.jpg (541.21 KiB) Viewed 1367 times

So, either the thread is the wrong depth or it does have a slight taper. The newer MC cap looks a bit more obvious with a slight taper.
As it stands, the new cap is totally useless and my project has been set back even more.

G.

[svenedin]

That is very annoying. I too found the new unvented cap had threads that did not feel right. I must confess that after checking repeatedly that it was not cross-threaded I just screwed it in anyway despite the resistance. My thoughts were that my system uses a vented cap and all the cap does is stop brake fluid leaking out. It is not designed to maintain any pressure and has a fibre washer anyway. It was OK using the Eezibleed but the vented cap did leak fluid when under pressure from the Eezibleed. I was too scared to screw it in very tight but the unvented cap is aluminium whereas the mc is steel so I assumed it is the cap that is going to loose and the mc threads should be fine. Certainly there was no problem when I replaced the unvented with the normal vented cap. Nonetheless it is yet another example of poorly made spare parts. It can’t be that difficult to get it right surely??? It was probably rather cavalier of me to just go ahead and screw the unvented cap in but after months of endless jobs on my car I was gung ho by that stage.

Stephen