Front disc brakes hub/wheel bearings

[eng622]

From my recent post about a droning noise which goes on braking and turning left I checked the hub grease caps for temperature with one finger after a 25 mile run. Could leave my finger on the NS one but only for a few seconds on the OS as hotter. Then took the road wheels off when cold and rotated the hubs with the brake pads out. The NS one I can hear a roughness but rotates freely no tight spots but the OS is silent. Despite the OS hub getting hotter my conclusion is the NS bearings are failing because of the noise.
My problem now is how to identify which hub I have and the correct bearings. Cannot find any markings. The brake caliper has 3K4 on it and the stub axle looks to be the Morris Minor one.

[philthehill]

Posting a photo of what you have fitted would be a great help in identifying what disc brake arrangement you have fitted.

[eng622]

Please see pic of hub/disc/caliper attached

IMG_20250325_130547463.jpg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 8197 times

[philthehill]

You appear to have a Morris Marina disc brake conversion fitted.
The hubs are Morris Marina with the wheel stud spacing (PCD) altered from 3.75" to 4".
If the stub axle is Morris Minor then I would suggest that the bearings are conversion bearings fitted over a 'top hat' spacer which has a larger dia hub seal seat for the standard Morris Marina hub seal.
The bearings normally fitted are:-
Outer bearing...............SKF 30203 J2
Inner bearing...............Timken L44649 L44610
The top hat spacer is as below:-
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/modif ... y-p1238945

If the stub axle has been changed to a Morris Marina stub axle (which was a popular conversion way back) then you can use Morris Marina front wheel bearings but you will still have to use a cut down top hat to provide a seat for the hub seal lip as per photo below:-
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/modif ... y-p1238945
My own Morris Minor has had the Marina stub axles fitted and now uses the standard Morris Marina wheel bearings and hub seal.
Unfortunately until you strip the hub you will not know what has been fitted.
The Morris Marina hub nut locking arrangement is different to the Minor in that it has a castellated locking washer which fits over the hub nut and is then kept from turning by a split pin. See photo below. The Morris Marina wheel bearings do not have to be fully tightened as per the Minor they are tightened and backed off to give slight play at the wheel rim.

Marina hub nut 2.JPG (67.09 KiB) Viewed 8137 times

Good Luck.

[eng622]

I have the castellated locking washer. When I purchased the car there was too much play in the NS bearing (the one now with noise) so adjusted as normal for taper ones. However noted that the split pin only just engaged in the castle teeth. Recent inspection after around a further 1000 miles showed again too much free play so adjusted again. The hub nut looks to be screwed on much further than the OS one so thinking something internally is not quite right.
Will the top hat be obvious to see, assume it fits on the stub shaft.
Is the hub easy to remove. Hoping to get the caliper off without undoing any unions. With the outer bearing out is it a matter of just pulling the hub off, do you need the road wheel on to help.
Regarding the stub axle is it obvious if it is a Minor or Marina one.

[philthehill]

The Marina stub axle shown in the photo above has a dogs teeth locking washer which fits over the dogs teeth of the stub axle between the bearing and hub nut. The Minor just has a plain washer, castellated nut and split pin. The difference between the two is obvious.
When the Marina hub nut and castellated lock washer is fitted to the Minor stub an additional washer is required so as to ensure that the split pin is fully engaged with the castellated lock washer.
Once the hub is removed the top hat spacer if fitted will become obvious.
The Marina hub should be easy to remove. You should not require any additional leverage i.e. wheel.
The taper bearings of the Marina hub should have play and should not be overtightened. Overtightening will lead to rapid wear of the bearing.

[eng622]

Can you drift the bearings out with the brake disc still on the hub.
Does the additional washer missing on mine go in front of the trust washer, anything special needed.

[philthehill]

You can drift the wheel bearings out of the hub with the disc still attached to the hub.

The assembly is as such with Morris Minor stub axle:-
Oil seal--------Inner bearing--------Outer bearing--------Thrust washer(s) as required--------castellated hub nut--------Split pin.

The assembly is as such with Morris Marina stub axle:-
Oil seal--------Inner bearing--------Outer bearing--------Internal dog tooth thrust washer--------plain hub nut--------castellated lock washer--------Split pin.

[eng622]

Have the hub out on the bench. The outer bearing race is marked 30203 and looks like it may drift out with a suitable size socket.
The inner race has no number. The cup part of the inner race rotates in the hub and sure this is not correct also the hub shoulder where it seats has some damage. Cannot see how to get it out anyway as flush with shoulder (maybe why damaged), but can see two groves 180m apart in the hub.
Picture is attached.
The stub axle is plain and does not have the castellations and the adaptor on the inner end also has some damage.

[svenedin]

Yes that is how you get it out. Using a suitable drift you can put the drift into those reliefs 180 degrees apart and tap the outer race ring out. This is very similar to the Minor front hub in that respect. I used a round rod brass drift, 1/4" if I recall.

So looking at your picture, you turn the hub up the other way then angle your drift into the relief and tap the drift with a hammer. As the outer race ring starts to move you turn to the other relief and repeat trying always to get the ring to come out as straight as possible as if it moves too far on one side it will get stuck.

Stephen

[eng622]

Just found a Marina hub bearing video and just as you describe.
My concern is as the inner bearing cup has been rotating it may have worn the hub to the extent that a new bearing will be a loose fit. I can pull the cup partly out by hand.

[svenedin]

Obviously if the outer race has been rotating in the hub that isn't right. You could try using a bearing retaining liquid (thread lock) like Loctite 641 (medium strength). Or the other option is to try to source another hub. Now you know what to do, it isn't such a big deal to do a bearing so if it were me I would probably try a new bearing with thread lock whilst looking out for a replacement hub. Obviously if the new bearing was very loose in the hub that is a different matter. The outer race is only stopped from rotating by friction (being an interference fit) so Loctite 641 will restore that friction and I bet it won't rotate. The medium strength because it needs to be able to be taken apart in future.By the way, don't throw away old bearings. They are not useless, they make excellent tools to tap new bearings in!

Ensure to observe the required curing time (according to ambient temperature) before testing the reinstalled hub assembly.
https://datasheets.tdx.henkel.com/LOCTITE-641-en_GL.pdf

Stephen

[eng622]

Bearings out not much effort needed on the inner which was partially loose but outer needed some good whacks to get it moving. The inner marked PCB225W (cannot find any reference to this code) similar dimensions to Timken but thicker at 14.65 mm.
Further possible problem. Do the inner bearing cones just slide onto the stub without appreciable free play. In my case the outer does but the inner is sloppy on the stub. The bearing noise I was getting is from the inner bearing rough when rotated.
I have attached pictures of the stub the second a close up of where the inner bearing seats. The outer is smooth with just light markings. The inner part of the stub looks nothing like the pic posted by Philthehill with the cut down top hat. You can see the inner end on mine is very rough in the close up and looks to have been 'butchered' hence the sloppy bearing fit.

[philthehill]

You have Morris Minor stub axles with the top hat sleeve fitted.
I would replace both top hat sleeves which are available from ESM.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/modif ... y-p1238945
As I explained in my post above I have got Morris Marina stub axles fitted to my Minor with cut down top hat sleeves which are required to accommodate the Morris Marina hub seal so they will be different to the stub axles fitted to your Minor.
The top hat sleeve is there to make up the difference between the Minor and Marina hub bearings.

[svenedin]

Is it this? Out of stock unfortunately

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/modif ... y-p1238945

[philthehill]

Stephen
Yes the item in your link above is the item required.
As you say unfortunately out of stock.
Phil

[eng622]

How do you get the top hat sleeve off anyway. Note not available. Do you think I can get away with the existing one looking at the damage, how could it have got into this state.

[philthehill]

That top hat sleeve needs to be replaced.
To be blunt - I think that the bearings have been fitted with insufficient play.
To remove the top hat sleeve you could try a screwdriver between the inner end of the sleeve and the swivel machined face or grind (with care) the tube of the sleeve to split the sleeve so as to remove it.

[eng622]

I have noted that the top hat sleeve D is 1.062 ins and the bearing inner D 26.99 mm/1.062 ins so assume interference/sliding fit. Mine measures approx. 1.052 so 10 thou under so that is why the bearing is sloppy.
When I bought the car I checked the the road wheel movement and the NS was much more than normal so adjusted as for a taper one. Done around 1500 miles since then and when the droning noise started checked and again way too much. Do not think tightening the bearing would degrade the top hat surface.
Since the top hat is not available I am going to put new bearings in and if the inner lasts another 1500 miles that will be ok as only doing about 1000 in a year. Cannot see any other simple way forward.

[philthehill]

Instead of using the damaged sleeve I personally would use the new hub from ESM as shown in the link below:-
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/brake ... al-p829471
It covers all the shortcomings of the sleeve and is a direct fit onto the Minor stub axle.