Wolseley 1500 9" Brake Drums Availability

[svenedin]

Thank you Phil. What you say all makes complete sense except it does not tally with the parts I have in front of me.

This is me on the left hand side of my Morris with a left hand marked Wolseley 1500 back plate. The cylinder is in front of the axle and the right way up (bleed nipple uppermost).

Perhaps of course when I have the Morris parts stripped off it will suddenly dawn on me that it will not line up as intended...........

Anyway, it all looks pretty straightforward and I may well as at least attempt it. The upside is the hub paper gasket and O-ring will be renewed whatever happens and it all needs a good clean around the back brakes as it is very oil and greasy and this has trapped a lot of dirt. In other words there is more than one reason to get on and do it.

For now I've given the back plate fixings are good drench in penetrating oil so I may have a better chance in the morning. I have an issue with Tennis Elbow at the moment so I am not up for a big fight with rusty nuts and bolts.

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[svenedin]

I've been measuring my garage to determine whether there is room to remove the halfshalfts. According to this forum the half shafts are 27.75" long. I have 28" one side but only 27" on the other. Apparently about another inch can be gained by the half shaft coming out of the axle tube at an angle but even so it's extremely tight for space. I will measure again tomorrow but I suspect this job will have to wait until the car can move under its own power.

Edit: I looked at a Minor halfshaft on eBay that has a tape measure up to it in the photo and the length to the flange appears to be approximately 25.75" long. That I can deal with......

The competition halfshafts on the Peter May website say they are 653mm long, 25.70".


Stephen

[svenedin]

I'm going to get under the back of the car this morning. Yesterday I replaced the rear flexible brake hose. It is absolutely horrible underneath the back of the car. For me it's hell. Even with the back of the car jacked up and on axle stands there's very little room and it's an oily nightmare. For some time I had a leak from the differential pinion oil seal and although this is completely sorted with a new oil seal, oil was thrown around at the back presumably by the spinning of the propellor shaft. The thick diff oil has coated everything and it has picked up lots of dirt. At least it rust proofed itself through oil incontinence!!

I have decided to leave it at upgrading the front brakes only at this stage. Most people who upgrade to Wolseleys at the front don't do the back as well. I thought long and hard about this. I am not at all keen on modifications in general as I think they can often make life awkward and difficult when it doesn't have to be. The brake comparison table that was collated by IslipMinor with information from AP Lockheed is very important to consider. My car is going from standard late Minor brake components to the 9" front drums with Wolseley 0.8" cylinders so this takes the car from 74% front/26% rear to 71%/29%. There seems to be some consensus that it is better to keep the rear at 30% or below to reduce the risk of locking the rear under heavy braking. Obviously the proportion of front/rear is determined by the design of car, loading etc and in our case, front engine, rear wheel drive in-line. IF I upgraded the rear brakes as well this would shift the balance to 67/33 which may be fine but I think it is better to get some experience and feel for the front upgrade first. These proportions of braking are theoretical based on perfectly operating brakes and in real life will be affected by the friction materials and condition of brakes front/rear. Incidentally, Marina front discs and standard 7" drums results in 70/30 front/rear and those who fit front discs scarcely ever do anything to the rear brakes.

So I will clean up and service the Minor 7" brakes. Things are mucky on taking off the drums but I don't think there are oil leaks. If there are I will do flange gasket, O-ring and hub lip seals. Then on to bleeding brakes (I made a modified master cylinder cap for the Eezibleed).

I need to get on and have the garage ready to accept the engine delivery and I can't do that with tools everywhere.

Stephen

[philthehill]

The rear hub oil seal can only be removed and fitted with the hub bearing removed. The rear seal fits inside the hub unlike the front hubs which have the seal fitted from the outside of the hub.

[svenedin]

The rear hub oil seal can only be removed and fitted with the hub bearing removed. The rear seal fits inside the hub unlike the front hubs which have the seal fitted from the outside of the hub.

Yes I rapidly remembered this!

I started the left hand side. The hub oil seal had been leaking. It was like archaeology there was so much grease, oil and dirt. The hub nut had been absolutely butchered and I had to file it to get a proper spanner to fit as the horrible gouges had made fitting a spanner impossible. I will replace this atrocity! I freed off the horribly seized brake back plate nuts and bolts. Backplate thick with oil, dirt and grease. Cleaned it up but it needs some paint. Hub oil seal an absolute nuisance to get out but done.

Bearing seems fine. I found the oil drain hole Phil mentioned. Blocked of course!

A job definitely worth doing but a horrible job. Not difficult for very dirty.

From the flange a Minor 1098 half shaft is just under 26" long.




Mutilated hub nut. All that and it wasn't even that tight. Pointless

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Oil drain hole blocked with dirt

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[svenedin]

Same story on the other side. Butchered hub nut, ancient paper gasket, worn out lip oil seal. Oil, dirt and grease everywhere. I think the grease is from decades and decades of greasing the handbrake cable! The oil is obviously from the axle. Bearing feels a bit rough on this side. Will assess when cleaned out.

Very pleased I did this as I have nice Mintex shoes at the back and they are no longer available. Would not want them ruined by oil. I didn't measure it but the diff seemed a bit low on oil by what drained out.

Any views on the double lip vs single lip oil seal? They are the same price from ESM.

Stephen

[svenedin]

Rear brake drums, back plates, hubs ready to go back on the car on Monday. Weekend away from working on the car before I go mad.

I was trying to work out how long those rear hub oil seals have been leaking. I've owned the car since 1989 and I've never done them..........rather a long time I think!

Stephen

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[svenedin]

After a few days off anything to do with cars back to it again. Rear brake parts and hubs are all cleaned up and painted. Standard Morris brakes going back on at the back. New genuine Delphi rear cylinders, dust boots, copper washers, the last of my stock of Mintex brake shoes. I read Phil's post about checking that the hub gasket is the correct thickness. It is striking that the gaskets from the major suppliers are such different thicknesses. I have both types. One set is 0.006" thick and the other is 0.028" thick. Even in the hand they are drastically different. The old ones were 0.006" so I hope that this will be correct again. I do have gasket papers in different thicknesses if I have to make gaskets. I have two types of hub oil seal, single lip and double lip. They look exactly the same unless you look carefully at the lip. ESM say the double lip seals better on a worn axle but I don't think the tube is worn much. Presumably this is because the lip runs on a different place on the axle tube. Then bleed the brakes and the car can get off axle stands and stand on its wheels which is a major milestone and not a moment too soon.

Stephen


0.006" Left, 0.028" right

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[svenedin]

Seemed like a long day on the car today. Everything is back together again. Hub seals: gasket, o-ring, lip seal done both sides. No obvious oil leaks and yes the diff is refilled. The usual fight with the rear brakes. Taking shoes off and putting them back is not a job I do often and it always seems a fight. I have never done really high mileage in the Morris despite decades of ownership so rear brakes shoes are a rare job. The rear pull off spring is so strong it seems (or I am so weak). I have never really got the knack of it but I always get there eventually. Usual cursing at Beehive springs (either a doddle or impossible). I shouldn't even mention them. Front brakes I never find particularly difficult.

I bled the brakes on my own with the Eezibleed and I am so glad that I made the effort to drill and tap a non-vented cap for this. The instructions say to pressurise first with no fluid in the bottle and check for leaks. Yes there were leaks. Nothing drastic but unions that I had not tightened sufficiently. I am reluctant to use too much force sometimes as I am afraid of breaking things but obviously the brake unions were not tight enough. I suppose with a brake spanner there is a natural imitation to how much force can be applied. The leaks were easily sorted and on to bleeding. Went well enough and pedal seems firm with no spongy feel. For my own peace of mind I will do them again with an assistant as I am (rightly) paranoid about brakes. With an assistant I will just use the old-fashioned way and watch for bubbles (which I am not expecting to see at all). I will also go over the entire system again looking for any leaks but I do not believe there are any now. I did find some genuine Mowog rear drums of mine that I thought were very good but they would scarcely adjust up and are worn out (why on earth did I bother painting them!). Newer drums adjusted easily.

Tomorrow a huge tidy up. I'm sick of the muddle the garage is in!

Stephen

[svenedin]

Quick question for those with more experience than I have. About 8 years ago I fitted new handbrake cables and AFTER properly adjusting the rear brakes I adjusted the handbrake according to the workshop manual (adjusting the cables to make the drum move only with considerable difficulty at 3 clicks of the handbrake pawl, as evenly left and right as possible and making sure there is no resistance whatsoever with the handbrake off . This has been fine.

I just fitted new genuine Delphi-Lockheed rear cylinders at the rear (standard Minor brakes) but the shoes seemed to have lots of life left so I refitted them. I adjusted the brakes at the drum as normal. Then I noticed that the handbrake needed adjusting and by quite a lot (same both sides). The old cylinders were pattern and the new ones are genuine. Does it sound normal to have to adjust the handbrake when replacing the rear cylinders and they are not quite like-for-like? I do suspect that there had been a bit of stretching of the handbrake cable over the years as it was not fully engaging until probably 5 clicks. So it may have been due for some adjustment anyway.

Stephen

[svenedin]

I just thought I'd mention that the brakes bled with no fuss at all. I know that on some Minors, for reasons not entirely clear, the brakes are very difficult to bleed requiring extreme measures like raising the back of the car high up. I have used Dot 5 (Automec Silicone) for some years since I completely stripped out and replaced the braking system. Silicone seems to have a reputation for difficult bleeding but again it did not present problems. The great thing about Silicone brake fluid is that if you spill any it does not harm paintwork. That is a good thing since I did make quite a mess bleeding the brakes but it was just the garage floor that got wet. I used the Eezibleed with a modified master cylinder cap. I did find that the new unvented cap didn't seem to thread particularly easily onto the master cylinder and it leaked a bit into the chassis leg with the Eezibleed attached so that some brake fluid dripped onto the floor. Even though I had achieved a firm brake pedal I bled the brakes again this evening with an assistant doing the brake pedal. Nothing was gained from the second bleeding other than to satisfy my need to double check.

Stephen

[svenedin]

First experiences of these 9" drums are somewhat underwhelming. Brakes feel exactly the same. I have to say the rebuilt engine doesn't feel much different either. Certainly not worse. The brakes just feel as marginal as they ever did. Steep hills up maybe a little better. Steep hill down, the usual change down into 3rd or it will run away. My test hill is Sanderstead Hill. As a small child my mother's Mini failed repeatedly on that hill. My Minor has never ever refused it.

So my early conclusion is that all those posts from BMCEcosse were basically a bit hyperbolic..........he went on an on about his Wolseley 1500 front brakes. Well I actually not only can compare but I have his brake parts. The very same. They are alright.........m'eh

In actual fact all I have are the 9" drums. The back plates had been interfered with so I have unmolested 9" back plates from another source . The incorrect shoes TR7 jammed in not adjustable I wasn't happy about either. Not that I was happy about any of it with a so called authority with a car with Special K cereal packects

with filler over the top holding over the chassis rails........


I think these shoess are new so they will have to bed in. I'll adjust in due course. I might send a set of shoes away to be re-limed. I basically think these 9" are like an 8" set with bad linings. I always had Mintex shoes all these 36 years. I have had a quote and I think £50 per side so what if they're good. They'll last for thousands of miles.


I do my best. I really do. I am not a mechanic. I try to preserve my car and help others. I am very grateful for the advice I receive BUT it is very disappointing when it turn out that a long time contributor, sadly deceased, has not been entirely honest.

Stephen

[philthehill]

BMCEcosse was a bit like Marmite - you liked him or you hated him.
Over the years we had our differences of opinion.
But I was never put on his naughty stool.

[MikeNash]

" . . BUT it is very disappointing when it turn out that a long time contributor, sadly deceased, has not been entirely honest."

Hmmm. My dealings with him were both on this site and more directly, meeting him once to buy an engine. I found him very knowledgeable, direct, and forthright in his opinions which was based very much on his personal experience. (He's the only person I know who rallied Minors.) B@llsh*t played no part.

I've followed your thread with great interest 'cos I'm doing the same thing (very slowly) myself and I've retained the original asbestos linings to see how they perform. Here, in Hurstbourne Tarrant, the A343 has either end of the village a steep hill, one marked as a 14% grade (i.e. a "1in7" slope) which really tests my Trav's brakes especially if I've the trailer attached. I don't remember the cars of my youth having so much trouble and I've put it down to the Bull Motif linings I've got fitted. I suspect that these cheaper linings, made I suppose in the Far East, are inferior products to the originals. At the moment, when loaded, I have to obey our ancient sign that says "Engage Low Gear".

I wish you well, and please let us know of how you proceed. MikeN.

[mobylette]

I fitted the Riley 1.5 front brakes and they are a vast improvement over the originals. It must be the linings, have you checked how much of the lining is contacting the drum? I would persevere.

[svenedin]

I think they need to bed in. I am being a bit tongue in cheek but yesterday I drove 25 miles out in the Surrey Hills. They're quite steep those hills. Car just felt the same really. Maybe marginally better brakes but nothing that surprised me. I suppose in all honesty going from near perfect 8" brakes to the 9" I am not sure what I was really expecting. All I was saying is BMC was near constantly raving about them but as yet I can't feel it.

I saw another Minor in Purley. Rare these days!

Stephen

[svenedin]

" . . BUT it is very disappointing when it turn out that a long time contributor, sadly deceased, has not been entirely honest."

Hmmm. My dealings with him were both on this site and more directly, meeting him once to buy an engine. I found him very knowledgeable, direct, and forthright in his opinions which was based very much on his personal experience. (He's the only person I know who rallied Minors.) B@llsh*t played no part.

I've followed your thread with great interest 'cos I'm doing the same thing (very slowly) myself and I've retained the original asbestos linings to see how they perform. Here, in Hurstbourne Tarrant, the A343 has either end of the village a steep hill, one marked as a 14% grade (i.e. a "1in7" slope) which really tests my Trav's brakes especially if I've the trailer attached. I don't remember the cars of my youth having so much trouble and I've put it down to the Bull Motif linings I've got fitted. I suspect that these cheaper linings, made I suppose in the Far East, are inferior products to the originals. At the moment, when loaded, I have to obey our ancient sign that says "Engage Low Gear".

I wish you well, and please let us know of how you proceed. MikeN.

Hello Mike. Thank you for your comment. I put new linings on the 9" front that are shall we say unremarkable. They're new but unbranded. I have another set, riveted new and definitely asbestos. I know those shoes will perform better but I am reluctant to fit them. As a not even qualified doctor, so young, in Edinburgh I watched people die from mesothelioma, the lung cancer caused by asbestos. Those poor blokes stripped boilers out in the shipyards. I know that what I might expose myself to is so small but these things stick in the mind.


Stephen

[jaekl]

Was he comparing the brakes to 8 inch or 7 inch? Is it possible that you have the backing plates on the wrong side? How do the brakes feel in reverse?

[svenedin]

Was he comparing the brakes to 8 inch or 7 inch? Is it possible that you have the backing plates on the wrong side? How do the brakes feel in reverse?

No these are all 1969 8" going to 9". Don't worry someone out driving now. We'll see what my husband thinks. He's only driven the car for 35 years. He didn't learn to drive on it like I did


I did the absolutely awful Lombard roundabout in Mitcham on my test. I hate it to this day. When I was 17 Xaviier was over 20. We were much the age, but he was an old car then.

[svenedin]

Was he comparing the brakes to 8 inch or 7 inch? Is it possible that you have the backing plates on the wrong side? How do the brakes feel in reverse?

No these are all 1969 8" going to 9". Don't worry someone out driving now. We'll see what my husband thinks. He's only driven the car for 35 years. He didn't learn to drive on it like I did


I did the absolutely awful Lombard roundabout in Mitcham on my test. I hate it to this day. When I was 17 Xaviier was over 20. We were much the age, but he was an old car then. Everyone took the mick.........but where are their cars now?