Yet another Starting Problem

[rocco]

I decided it was a good idea to start up my car after a period of about 2 months in the garage and connected up the battery after giving it a charge. The engine was running fine at the end of last year, no issues.

It cranked for about 5-seconds and then nothing, like it had seized or a fuse had blown. I was using the secret button under the magical part in the engine bay rather than turning it over with the key. I don't know if this is a proper way but it is convenient.

I checked the fuses and they are all fine but what I have noticed is that the fuel pump doesn't click. I don't suspect the fuel pump because even if it was faulty, the engine should still turn over on the starter motor.

I didn't want to write on here because I reckon I should be able to figure it out myself but I've had a drink and thought, why not. Even if I do figure it out, maybe a post would help someone else down the line? I reckon either the magical start solenoid is knackered or the starter motor. I do get an orange and red light on the clock when I turn the key and I do hear a click when I try to start the engine on the key. I just don't get any action when I turn the key or use the secret button.

Would anyone like to offer a guess at what has happened and what the remedy is please?

[svenedin]

I think that the first thing I would do is disconnect the battery, clean the terminal posts and the terminal connectors with some emery paper and connect it up again. Then see what happens.

You have had the battery disconnected so the most likely thing is a corroded connector, terminal post or connection not tight enough. Yes I know you said the dash warning lights came on but they are tiny little bulbs and the starter needs a very big current in comparison.

If this fails, the other possibility is that the battery was flat for too long and although you charged it, it now only has enough power for 5 seconds of cranking. This can happen quite quickly if the battery is already beginning to fail. Charge it again and repeat. If the same thing happens the battery needs replacing. For information, a fully charged battery will freeze at around -57 C but a completely flat battery will freeze at around -5C. Perhaps the battery froze over the Winter? This would be likely to do serious damage to the battery.


Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

Turn your headlight on, are they bright? Now push starter button, do they dim.
Yes = as Stephen said low battery or poor contact.
No = starter not pulling current, is the start button good?
Bridge the two main terminals with a screwdriver, does the motor crank?
Is the starter cable tight and clean or maybe the starter is stuck, rocking the car in gear may release it.

A few thoughts to try

[rocco]

Thank you gents. I've already removed, cleaned and greased the battery terminals while the battery was out. I measured the battery before and after and it's still at 75%. If the battery was dead I'd expect a slow, laboured crank.

I'll try another battery anyway but starter being stuck is a good shout. I'll give that a go next.

[geoberni]

It cranked for about 5-seconds and then nothing, like it had seized or a fuse had blown. I was using the secret button under the magical part in the engine bay rather than turning it over with the key. I don't know if this is a proper way but it is convenient.

So I'll assume you've a key start and your solenoid has the button.
Did you turn the Ign on, otherwise it's cranking over with no supply to the coil.??

But even if you hadn't turned the Ign on, then it should have continued to crank over, just getting slower and slower as it drained the battery.
There's nothing to stop it cranking if just powering the Starter motor directly as you appear to have been doing.....
Unless you somehow jammed the Bendix in the flywheel?
Have you had the starter off and forgotten to tighten one of the bolts??

How cold it it over there at the moment?
When you say the battery is at 75%, how are you testing that?
How old is the battery?
What's the actual offload terminal voltage?
A tired battery will dramatically drop capacity as the temperature drops.


Curious.....

[rocco]

I do have a key starter, the same happens (or doesn't happen) whether I turn the key or press the button on the solenoid. Ignition lights are on, key is turned appropriately.

I haven't done anything to the car other than a service last year. It started and ran fine thereafter.

It has been cold but the car is garaged. I don't know how old the battery is but it's been in inside the house for the past 7-8 weeks. I will try another one if I get nowhere with the starter motor. It's got to be a stuck bendix.

[geoberni]

I do have a key starter, the same happens (or doesn't happen) whether I turn the key or press the button on the solenoid. Ignition lights are on, key is turned appropriately.

I haven't done anything to the car other than a service last year. It started and ran fine thereafter.

It has been cold but the car is garaged. I don't know how old the battery is but it's been in inside the house for the past 7-8 weeks. I will try another one if I get nowhere with the starter motor. It's got to be a stuck bendix.

Quite honestly, as the starter is only a couple of nuts & bolts, it's only a 5 minute job to take it off and you can check it.
With a career in electrics, I'd have grabbed my multimeter and have checked it all out in a few minutes to find the problem, but I appreciate it's not that easy for those unfamiliar with the basic electrics.
But trying to describe it all here would be like writing a small book....

Starter.JPG (37.54 KiB) Viewed 10868 times

In a nutshell, when key starting the operating wiring is as coloured orange.
But just turning the starter with the push button is a case of 'when you press the button...'
Is there battery voltage, at least 12v+ at point A, and the same voltage at point B.
If there is, then get the starter off.
It could be the Bendix, or even a brush stuck in it's guide frame so not touching the commutator.

If there's no voltage, or significantly low, then it's the solenoid.

[rocco]

Cheers mate. I am sure that diagram is useful to people familiar with the circuit on the car but I can't figure it out and the BL workshop manual I have doesn't explain it to me either. If #20 is the battery then 21 is the solenoid but what is #22?

I've just whipped the starter motor off, easy enough but could do with a bit more access. The oil filter and dizzy are slap bang in the way to get a socket on the bolts so I've used a combination of imperial and Whitworth spanners to get them out.

The bendix does turn but is a little bit sticky and the shaft has what I'd consider excess play so I'll open it up and clean it. I already cleaned up the one from my 948cc engine and I think they are the same. The differences are the way the bendix is secured and that the one from the 948 has more washers and nuts on the terminal post. 3 washers and 2 nuts compared to only one of each on the 1098.

20230115_193412.jpg (204.17 KiB) Viewed 10768 times

[Bill_qaz]

I believe 22 is the starter motor don't think number of nuts and washers is relevant as long as insulated from starter body clean and tight.

[rocco]

I believe 22 is the starter motor don't think number of nuts and washers is relevant as long as insulated from starter body clean and tight.

Oh dear, what a plonker I am. Of course it's the starter motor, what a dope.

[Bill_qaz]

Don't be so hard on yourself, in a past career as an instructor teaching mechanics, I always said the only stupid question is
" The one you didn’t ask while you had the chance "

[geoberni]

Cheers mate. I am sure that diagram is useful to people familiar with the circuit on the car but I can't figure it out and the BL workshop manual I have doesn't explain it to me either. If #20 is the battery then 21 is the solenoid but what is #22?

Sorry, I did think that the Battery, Switch and Starter were a bit obvious.....
Hope you find the problem soon.
As you've not mentioned it, can we assume you couldn't/didn't do any voltage checks?

Starter Motors are interchangeable between the engine sizes (within reason), i.e. from a 803/948/1098 will all fit.....

[rocco]

Cheers mate. I am sure that diagram is useful to people familiar with the circuit on the car but I can't figure it out and the BL workshop manual I have doesn't explain it to me either. If #20 is the battery then 21 is the solenoid but what is #22?

Sorry, I did think that the Battery, Switch and Starter were a bit obvious.....
Hope you find the problem soon.
As you've not mentioned it, can we assume you couldn't/didn't do any voltage checks?

Starter Motors are interchangeable between the engine sizes (within reason), i.e. from a 803/948/1098 will all fit.....

It should have been obvious, I don't know why I struggled to figure it out - I must do better.

I didn't do the voltage check but now that I've gotten my head around the components, I will test once I put everything back together and it still doesn't work.

[rocco]

While I was at it earlier, I took the dizzy cap and rotor arm off. I noticed the contact area was a bit black so it must be getting really hot.

What's the remedy? New arm and cap?

20250224_164511.jpg (220.2 KiB) Viewed 10707 times

The cap contacts look like this but I don't know if it's normal or not. What do you think?

20250224_164853.jpg (279.6 KiB) Viewed 10704 times

[geoberni]

That Cap and Rotor Arm look OK to me; it's handling something like 30,000v or more jumping across it, the same as the plugs do, and the Rotor Arm is doing it 4 times as often.

One thing at a time...
I wouldn't worry about them until after you've got it turning over; they'll probably be fine.
It's cracks in the Cap and the Rotor Arm that you need to worry about, if it doesn't run after you've got it turning.
By all means wipe the Rotor Arm on the tyre side wall just to take the soot off it.

[simmitc]

Reading back, I see that you greased the battery terminals. Most greases are insulators, so remove the termals, clean everything and reassemble. Cover external parts only with vaseline to prevent corrosion.

You can check for stuck bendix and release it in two ways:
a) Ignition off. In neutral. Front end of starter motor is a protruding square shaft. Put a spanner on it and wiggle backwards and forwards, leaving it in a slightly different position from when you started.
b) Ignition off. Put the car in gear, handbrake off and rock the car backwards and forwards to rotate the engine and release the bendix.
Now try starting again as usual.

[rocco]

Thanks for the tips again. Before removing the starter I did read on the BL workshop manual that I could turn the square end of the shaft but not only did I not have a square socket or spanner, it was a bit difficult to access. I tried mole grips but then decided to just remove it anyway, I had no idea of the condition so it was worth inspecting no matter what. I will test it before I put it back.

I tried method #2 before removal as well but it didn't change anything.

[rocco]

Just a quick update, the starter motor is dead.

I cleaned up the one from the 950cc engine and put it back together but it doesn't work either. I just get a firework display when I connect the battery to it and nothing else. Obviously done something wrong or it was broken before I fiddled with it.

I do have a rusty old spare one which I picked up cheap last year and that works great, especially after a bit of penetrating oil on the Bendix. I want to clean it up first, paint it and then put it back on the car but as the only working starter motor I don't want to ruin it. Maybe just an exterior soak and scrub then.

Just one thing I am wondering about, one of them has two long screws holding it together and the other two have 4 very small hex bolts. Which type is the newest?

Starter_Motors.jpeg (508.06 KiB) Viewed 8109 times

[svenedin]

Lucas parts are usually stamped with the date of manufacture in the form of week followed by year e.g 40 64, 40th week 1964. However, those are the original manufacturing dates and Lucas starter motors and dynamos were supplied on an exchange basis and often rebuilt multiple times.

The M35 starters used in Minors are M35G and the later ones are M35J

Stephen

[rocco]

Thanks Stephen. So the newer M35J version has the clamp (to keep dirt out I suppose) and the old ones don't. I wonder why they decided to do it this way? Seems like a step backward to me but I haven't checked the numbers on them so I might have it ar*e about face.

I've read on here that Isuzu and even some old Honda starters are compatible units. They look like they throw the pinion out to engage with the flywheel and if they are reliable then I may consider sourcing one.

I did open up the one with the two bolts (M35J) but I don't recall seeing something like this? Is it some kind of upgrade over the original magnets that are impossible to remove from the case with the welded philips screws?
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Lucas_M35J_Magnet.jpg (51.04 KiB) Viewed 7983 times

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It's advertised for the M35J starter here >> https://www.ebay.de/itm/186986751659?mk ... media=COPY

It would appear to be a way of keeping the magnets free of debris.