Damaged radiator

[Andyhereford]

Any suggestions as to why this has happened please. I recently replaced the water pump and cooling tubes on my daughters Minor. At the time I noticed that the fan had only a single blade.( mine has two). However all put back together, coolant etc. and all went well. A few days ago my daughter went to start her car, which she eventually did with some difficulty. She drove the car a short distance up the road when the engine stopped and refused to restart. On opening the bonnet the fan blade had somehow cut into the top of the radiator, cutting the metal casing and “seizing the engine”.
The radiator is obviously ruined. A new now is on order along with a new blade.
While replacing the bits are no problem I am just at a bit of a loss as to why / how this could have happened. The blade is still firmly attached to the water pump pulley and the old radiator was firmly secured to the car body with the four bolts. The old blade does not appear to be bent and anyway as I say the car had been running perfectly well after I had done the work on it.
Any suggestions as to why this might have happened and also…should the car have two blades on the fan pulley.
Thanks and best wishes

[geoberni]

Well the easy answer first.
The Twin Blade Fan was only "For Hot Climates" according to the parts manual so assuming the car was destined for UK when built, that was certainly not the factory fit. Your car is the odd one out in that regard.

As to the rest of the problem, if everything is correctly fitted, it simply "ain't gonna happen", so something must've come loose. As your changing the water pump is the only recent work, either you didn't secure something you disturbed, like the fan bolts, or the new water pump bearings have failed allowing the blade to wobble/move forward and make contact.

While the centre of the fan is a good 1" (25mm) from the radiator vanes, the vertical blade is only about 3/8" (9-10mm) from the edge of the top expansion chamber.

[Andyhereford]

Thanks for the reply. Mine went initially to Hong Kong. I suppose that explains the two fan blades. I will have a good check of the water pump when I refit everything.

[Bill_qaz]

Have you checked your engine mounts incase the whole motor is moving.

[les]

It’s worth checking the retaining wire securing the gearbox to crossmember.

[Andyhereford]

Thanks for suggesting the possibility that the engine is “ moving”.
As I explained in my message the car was going fine and certainly there is no obvious movement at the pump or blade and the damaged radiator, before I removed it, was firmly bolted in.
A sudden movement of the engine would certainly explain how the fan blade came into contact / cut into the top of the radiator.
This must be one of the most helpful “ owners club” websites around.

[philthehill]

Check the engine steady cable which is located between the rear of the gearbox casing and the gearbox mount crossmember.
They are known to fail allowing the engine to move forward.
If you have to replace the steady cable increase the size of the bolts holding the cable bracket to the gearbox from 1/4" UNF to 5/16" UNC. The 1/4" UNF bolt threads are too fine for the alloy casing.
BMC used the existing 1/4" UNF bolts but it was a bodge.

[Andyhereford]

Thanks Phil. I will have a good look to try and workout why it happened before I fit the new radiator.

[geoberni]

That's a very good point from Phil, there's only a small gap and some heavy breaking could have allowed the engine to move forward if the cable isn't connected or busted.
Even if the Engine Steady Bar was OK, it might have allowed sufficient forward movement...

[philthehill]

The engine steady bar is meant to hold the engine in a vertical position not to stop it moving forward.
Again another bodge by BMC - putting the body mounting bracket under the battery box which is and was never up to the job. The body bracket should have been welded to the crossmember.

[Andyhereford]

Thanks for all the comments.
The replacement radiator and fan blade arrived today. Hopefully I will be able to take a look at the car over the weekend.
One final question / request for comment….. If I need to replace / adjust the gearbox engine steady, or do any other work on the engine, it will be a lot easier if I could bring the car around to my house. I live about 3 miles from my daughter along very quiet country lanes.
Having read previous posts about the possible damage that can be caused by towing a Morris I was wondering if I refitted and refilled the radiator but removed the fan blade…it was the fan blade that had somehow damaged the old radiator….would it be safe to drive the car slowly back to my house or would the engine overheat.
The engine would still have the cooling effect of the water and the pump would still be circulating the water around the system. The car has a temperature gauge fitted. If this is a viable option would removing the thermostat also help to keep the engine cool on the short drive.
Any comments would be gratefully received.
Thanks and best wishes

[philthehill]

Not quite sure what you mean by damage to a Minor caused by towing. Please enlarge.
This time of year I see no problem with driving the car the three miles without the fan. You also have the heater which can be used as a cooling aid.
The Minor is way over cooled anyway.
You can remove the thermostat but I would not bother unless you feel it is absolutely necessary.
As you have a temp gauge you can monitor the temp and stop if necessary. I would go for it.

[Andyhereford]

As always thanks Phil for your prompt reply. I will give it a try.
Regarding my comment about towing a Morris I just read a few comments about the problem of finding a satisfactory point to attach the tow rope without causing possible damage to the chassis of the towed car. It will be much easier for me to drive the car anyway.
Thanks again every one.

[Bill_qaz]

3 miles without fan is no issue, you'll be lucky if the thermostat opens in that distance in current temps so no need to remove. You may want to put some washer on the bolts when fan is removed so you can tighten against pulley without bolts going too far through.
Towing is not an issue I towed mine from Norfolk to Oxfordshire when I bought it with the towing A frame attached to the bottom suspension arms, without any issues.

[Andyhereford]

I got the car back to my house alright.
Having had a good look at the car I am unable to move the engine at all by rocking / pulling it back and forward. Everything seems to be as it should.
The gearbox steady wire appears to be in good condition but I will need to jack the car up to be able to get a proper look at it
The engine mount blocks are intact but do appear to be a bit perished, tired and “ shrunken”.
However I can see that the clearance between the fan blade and the radiator is less on my daughters car than on mine. On my Morris I can just about push my hand between the fan blade centre and the radiator core while on my daughters car I can not. The clearance is noticeably less.
I intend to replace the engine mount blocks hoping that this might serve to move the engine back up and back a bit.
Any other suggestions as to what I can try to try to increase the fan clearance would be gratefully received .
There is no forward movement on the fan / pump and it appears to be running true.
There is no sign of any damage having ever occurred to the front the car.
The chassis members under the engine bay are in good condition.
The car has / does drive normally and was going fine until the fan blade somehow came into contact with the radiator.
The only recent work that I have done on the car, which was done some months ago, was to replace a core plug, and the water pump, thermostat housing and radiator tubes. All parts supplied by ESM.
Thanks for any suggestions.

[Bill_qaz]

Is the pulley definitely fully home on the waterpump pulley and plate fitted on outside of fan? Measure from a fixed point on engine to fan blad on yours and compare, if the same then take some radiator location measurements. Also is the radiator the same thickness number of tubes visible through filler the same on both cars?

Screenshot_20231216-143940_eBay.jpg (191.42 KiB) Viewed 105293 times

[simmitc]

I wonder whether the original blade broke as a result of hitting the radiator or hit the radiator as a result of breaking? I have seen fan blades suffer from metal fatigue and crack at the base of the blade. The act of trying to draw air in would then force the blade out and it could strike the radiator.

[Andyhereford]

Simmitc
Thanks for your comments. Just one query. The blade on my daughters car did not / does not have the small square plate as shown on your diagram. This plate presumably provides strengthening for the blade. It just has the blade bolted onto the pump pulley. Should I try to get this plate.
My Morris has two blades and no plate, presumably the second blade providing the strengthening element to the fan structure.
Best wishes

[philthehill]

Has someone previous fitted the engine mount towers to the wrong side?
They are handed.
The angled front of the tower should face forward.
That will push the engine rearwards about 3/4".
You will have to slacken the gearbox crossmember mounts as that will need to be pushed back as well.
I would suggest that you compare the two cars as regards the orientation of the engine mounts.
A photo of your engine mounts would be appreciated.
If you have the second fan blade I would still fit the strengthening plate with plain washers under the spring washers. Make sure that the bolts are long enough.
If you have the single fan you most importantly do need to have the strengthening plate. The fan mount tends to crack and fail without the plate.

[myoldjalopy]

I wonder whether the original blade broke as a result of hitting the radiator or hit the radiator as a result of breaking? I have seen fan blades suffer from metal fatigue and crack at the base of the blade. The act of trying to draw air in would then force the blade out and it could strike the radiator.

I had one break off on the road once - there was an almighty bang and the blade left a little dint in the bonnet!