Fuel pumps

[scrooge95]

Hi,
Having got my Traveller 'Henry' back from what turned out to be a complete engine and gearbox rebuild last weekend, I'm having a few fuel pump issues.
He was away for the best part of 5 months, and once the engine was reinstalled and fired up, apparently the fuel pump failed.
(I have no idea whether it was a genuine one, or an aftermarket copy, but it had got me 200 miles back from Cornwall, and appeared to be the least of the poor travellers worries. But, I digress...)
The invoice for the replacement was £30, so I am assuming this to be a cheap reproduction version.
On picking up Henry last weekend, it failed 400yds away from the workshop.
Another was bought and fitted.
I got home okay (a little juddery at times, but maybe 'new engine' running in troubles, maybe like a small misfire?)
So today I thought I'd go out for another short test drive - getting the first 100 miles under our belt so that the head bolts can be re-torqued and the tappets adjusted if necessary.
Stalling on the reverse out of the driveway - but I figured I'm just getting used to a manual choke, right?
Got about 2 miles from home, and the engine is dying.
Starts, runs, won't pull away without loads of revs (don't want to injure the new engine)
Starts, runs, won't pull away at all.
Starts, won't idle.
Won't start.

Tapped the fuel pump with whatever I had to hand... my wallet, my mobile phone....
managed to get turned around and about 50yds towards home.
Then back to start but won't idle.
Then won't start.
Fuel pump is hot.
Called the AA, who got a hammer out.... hoorah, Henry starts and the AA followed me home.
The kind AA man also noticed that the positive feed wire for the fuel pump was very close to / touching the bodywork, and wondered if it was shorting to earth. He bent it away.

So, after that long introduction (sorry, I like to talk!) my question is this....
Are the cheap (chinese?) fuel pumps junk? Or is it luck of the draw and I just got unlucky?
Or is it worth getting a genuine Burlen from ESM for example, at £170?

1098cc engine in a 1967 Traveller.

Thanks in advance

[jagnut66]

Slightly cheaper:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334694188651 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175489397307 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
I have also had one of these fitted to a car in the past and it worked okay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175574241222 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
However, personally I prefer the look of the original SU.
As always, it's horses for courses.....
Best wishes,
Mike.

[scrooge95]

Slightly cheaper:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334694188651 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175489397307 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
I have also had one of these fitted to a car in the past and it worked okay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175574241222 ... R5yAwaG_YQ
However, personally I prefer the look of the original SU.
As always, it's horses for courses.....
Best wishes,
Mike.

Thank you!
I'd been looking at the ESM website, and saw the AUA66 for £150 and the electronic version for £170, so both of those SU pumps would be more agreeable price-wise.
Newbie, probably stupid, question - how would I tell if I currently have the electronic or points version?

[svenedin]

I would recommend you get a genuine SU AUA 66 and for peace of mind and reliability go for the electronic version. The electronic versions are polarity sensitive so you need to get the correct positive or negative earth version for your car. The fact that hitting the pump got it working again for a while suggests the points are at fault. The electronic version does away with points but in other respects is the same pump.

The electronic versions have a band of tape around the body of the pump towards the base of the pump side of the SU branded band that seals around the cap. A red band on positive earth pumps and a black band on a negative earth pump. If unsure remove the cap of the pump and it will be obvious whether it is a points type or electronic.

Before you fork out on a new pump I think it would be wise to check that it is definitely the pump that is faulty. Remove the flexible fuel hose from the carburettor and direct the hose into a suitable vessel to hold petrol for a short while. Then turn on the ignition but do not start the car. The pump should be seen to pump petrol into your vessel at a brisk pace. When you have tested turn off the ignition and pour the petrol back in the tank. Of course observe all precautions when dealing with petrol.

Stephen

[scrooge95]

I would recommend you get a genuine SU AUA 66 and for peace of mind and reliability go for the electronic version. The electronic versions are polarity sensitive so you need to get the correct positive or negative earth version for your car. The fact that hitting the pump got it working again for a while suggests the points are at fault. The electronic version does away with points but in other respects is the same pump.

The electronic versions have a band of tape around the body of the pump towards the base of the pump side of the SU branded band that seals around the cap. A red band on positive earth pumps and a black band on a negative earth pump. If unsure remove the cap of the pump and it will be obvious whether it is a points type or electronic.

Stephen

Oh that’s brilliant, thank you. I have a band of black tape around the body (I wondered what that was for!).
I knew the traveller was converted for neg earth, but that’s confirmed that my current pump is electronic.
I guess I need the AUA25 genuine one from Burlen.

[svenedin]

I would recommend you get a genuine SU AUA 66 and for peace of mind and reliability go for the electronic version. The electronic versions are polarity sensitive so you need to get the correct positive or negative earth version for your car. The fact that hitting the pump got it working again for a while suggests the points are at fault. The electronic version does away with points but in other respects is the same pump.

The electronic versions have a band of tape around the body of the pump towards the base of the pump side of the SU branded band that seals around the cap. A red band on positive earth pumps and a black band on a negative earth pump. If unsure remove the cap of the pump and it will be obvious whether it is a points type or electronic.

Stephen

Oh that’s brilliant, thank you. I have a band of black tape around the body (I wondered what that was for!).
I knew the traveller was converted for neg earth, but that’s confirmed that my current pump is electronic.
I guess I need the AUA25 genuine one from Burlen.

I think you should check under the cap to be sure as black insulating tape is often used to seal the cap on any SU pump electronic or not.........but black tape around the body of the pump should indicate electronic negative earth. An electronic one is more reliable though so that would be my recommendation. I added to my post above and suggested you should test the pump before buying another one. It could be that the fuel line from the tank is partially blocked, the pump fuel filter is blocked or other fuel delivery problems further up the line (float needle valve etc).

The pump you are looking for is AUA66 EN (electronic negative)

[scrooge95]

Ah okay, thank you.
I’ll check it out and confirm electronic or points.
Either way, it definitely isn’t an SU so I think I would like to change and get a better genuine one.

[svenedin]

Ah okay, thank you.
I’ll check it out and confirm electronic or points.
Either way, it definitely isn’t an SU so I think I would like to change and get a better genuine one.

Yes fair enough. There are lot of arguments about points or electronics usually along the lines of you can get a failed points version just about going but when the electronic one fails it's finished. The trouble with the points type fuel pumps is that they can develop an oxidation film on the points in cold, damp conditions and they stop working properly until the points are cleaned. When the cars were in daily use the points cleaned themselves quite well by the "wiping" action of the contacts. However, for cars that stand unused for periods of time points are a nuisance. I have a streak of Morris Minor purist that is not that keen on electronic versions but having had problems with unreliable points SU pumps I switched to electronic and have had no problems since. Good luck!

Stephen

[ManyMinors]

My experience of SU pumps is however quite the reverse. I have had very little trouble with standard pumps on my various cars with contacts inside and over several decades. Only once did I purchase an electronic version - brand new from Burlen - and it failed completely within 6 months. Quite impossible to coax the car into life again, so completely stuck I have stuck with the original contact type ever since so like so many things, it is not a completely straightforward argument!
The ebay pumps linked by somebody above: One is the incorrect pump for a Minor. The next is basically secondhand. A faulty one, returned to Burlen and then, after checking/repair/whatever it has been sent back as "working".....
The third one is a cheaper pattern alternative - which as you already know - might be fine and might not.
Like everything in life. A bit of a gamble.
The club was selling reconditioned ones at one time weren't they. That is perhaps another option too, but I would probably purchase a new original type SU pump from either ESM or direct from Burlen.

[svenedin]

My experience of SU pumps is however quite the reverse. I have had very little trouble with standard pumps on my various cars with contacts inside and over several decades. Only once did I purchase an electronic version - brand new from Burlen - and it failed completely within 6 months. Quite impossible to coax the car into life again, so completely stuck I have stuck with the original contact type ever since so like so many things, it is not a completely straightforward argument!
The ebay pumps linked by somebody above: One is the incorrect pump for a Minor. The next is basically secondhand. A faulty one, returned to Burlen and then, after checking/repair/whatever it has been sent back as "working".....
The third one is a cheaper pattern alternative - which as you already know - might be fine and might not.
Like everything in life. A bit of a gamble.
The club was selling reconditioned ones at one time weren't they. That is perhaps another option too, but I would probably purchase a new original type SU pump from either ESM or direct from Burlen.

I actually converted my points fuel pump to electronic with a kit from Burlen. I do have a spare fully operational points type pump though.....

[scrooge95]

Thankyou all for your replies.

I think the first thing is to discover whether mine is currently electronic or points based.
As said, for the £30 I was charged for it, I think we can definitely say it is a reproduction part rather than original.
The black band of tape does sit around what appears to be a join in the body, so may not apparently indicate electronic negative earth (although the car definitely is neg earth converted)

Burlen seem to be out of stock on their SU pumps at the moment, but ESM appear to have some.
Hopefully the current pump will allow me to get the 100 mile running in completed this week (I shall carry a hammer as a temporary fix), and then when Henry goes back to the mechanic for the head bolt torque and tappet adjust, I can mention swapping the fuel pump to a genuine one (having found out which type I need).

I think I should also swap the fuel pipe from the pump to the carb, as it is clear PVC.... certainly on my '74 VW camper I wouldn't entertain the idea of anything less than ethanol resistant pipe, so I don't see why the Morris should be treated any differently.

[svenedin]

Good plan. As hitting it gets it going I think it’s a points pump but as you say, a cheap copy. Take the cap off and clean the points with switch cleaner (isopropyl alcohol) and a piece of paper placed between the points as you hold them closed and withdraw the paper (or very fine Emery paper).

Your fuel hose is definitely unacceptable. Get a properly rated fuel hose. Personally I think braided fuel hoses are a bad idea as you cannot inspect the condition of the pipe beneath. This is extremely important because a fuel leak can spray fuel over the hot exhaust manifold…..

If having problems with stock try Southern Carburettors who are very good.

[geoberni]

How about a photo of the pump you have fitted?
Your post doesn't make clear if the £30 was for a pump or fixing the old one.
A set of genuine points for a SU pump are about £20 -£25 so a £30 charge from a garage seems about right.

[svenedin]

How about a photo of the pump you have fitted?
Your post doesn't make clear if the £30 was for a pump or fixing the old one.
A set of genuine points for a SU pump are about £20 -£25 so a £30 charge from a garage seems about right.

Good idea. Even brand new points can have an oxide film on them and need cleaning for proper operation. Burlen say this with new pumps. Also, if new points were fitted they may have been fitted improperly. Points need to be set up with the correct "throw" and clearances.

This is a very handy book to have for SU fuel pumps and carburettors: https://burlen.co.uk/su-workshop-manual.html

IMG_8562.jpeg (2.51 MiB) Viewed 1328 times

[ManyMinors]

I'd have thought that for £30.00 the most likely possibility is that a secondhand pump was fitted? Nothing wrong with that of course as it might have been fine.
But: What on earth was a garage charged with "a complete engine and gearbox rebuild" doing fitting a length of clear plastic fuel hose!

[oliver90owner]

FIRST thing to determine, before ASSUMING the pump is to blame might be to check the fuel supply from the tank?

Maybe it is the pump, but, from the whole thread, the pump is dermed to be the problem. First of all, has the tank been left with ethanol fuel for 6 months (possibly rusting the tank)?

Is the pump jammed up with rust and rubbish from the tank?

Better to confirm the pump is the real problem before doing anything else.

Before you fork out on a new pump I think it would be wise to check that it is definitely the pump that is faulty. Remove the flexible fuel hose from the carburettor and direct the hose into a suitable vessel to hold petrol for a short while. Then turn on the ignition but do not start the car. The pump should be seen to pump petrol into your vessel at a brisk pace. When you have tested turn off the ignition and pour the petrol back in the tank. Of course observe all precautions when dealing with petrol.

The early response, which stated the above, did not, necessarily, positively diagnose the problem!

[jagnut66]

The next is basically secondhand. A faulty one, returned to Burlen and then, after checking/repair/whatever it has been sent back as "working".....

If they are stating refurbished then I wouldn't be sniffy about saving money. The advert actually states:

MORRIS MINOR GENUINE S U PETROL FUEL / PUMP (AUA66) *B-GRADE*
THIS PUMP HAS BEEN INSPECTED & TESTED BY BURLEN FUEL SYSTEMS
THE PACKAGING MAY BE DAMAGED
Suitable for all Morris Minor models (1948-71)

The first advert stated in the title that it was for a Moggy but fair enough, it is a 25 not a 66, so here are a couple more cheaper alternatives:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325339286311 ... R4rqhNq_YQ
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144914647636 ... R4rqhNq_YQ
And another refurbished one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314353567584 ... R4rqhNq_YQ
Best wishes,
Mike.

[scrooge95]

Thanks for all your replies.
I’ve been out working all day so haven’t had a chance to do anything on Henry, although I have just started him up and gone for another short test drive.
As it was yesterday, we lasted a couple of miles before the fuel pump conked out. Luckily with my trusty hammer at hand, we were on our way again in no time ;)
Obviously this can’t go on!

As for photos, it’s a bit dark now but I did photograph the engine bay yesterday when I was feeling full of hope and enthusiasm… ie before we actually drove anywhere !

9849AF2B-97BA-4913-A794-1116C77C45BC.jpeg (2.48 MiB) Viewed 1281 times

and zoomed in, this is the fuel pump and the dodgy pvc fuel hose

6EDCFC17-4721-46E7-A079-4205548ED953.jpeg (297.5 KiB) Viewed 1281 times

[svenedin]

That fuel pump looks like an SU copy. I would check all the electrical connections to the pump. There are 3 connections. 2 earth connections to the body and a live to the cap. It may just be the photo but possibly the earth connection at the base of the pump is loose. Also take the cap off and clean the points. Thumping to get the thing working is usually dirty points but could also be a bad electrical connection

[myoldjalopy]

If I had a pump that was playing up in this way - genuine SU or no - I would certainly gently clean the points as a first port of call, at the same time checking the connections, as 'svenedin' has mentioned. If it proves to be the points, it is not difficult to fit a new set...........once they start playing up, cleaning them can solve the problem, but it may only be a temporary fix and they will fail again, eventually.