Please help... he won't start :(

[radioactiveman]

Hello everyone!

I'm feeling a little dejected... I knew this day would come but I was hoping for a little longer than a couple of weeks of enjoyment

Today when I went to start the car it sounded a bit 'lumpy' (for want of a more descriptive phrase). To the point where it sounded like it was on the verge of conking out... so I turned it off. Now it won't start.

The fuel pump is making rather a loud clicky noise, but I don't know if that's normal. I've included a video in case that's of any help.

https://youtu.be/3NGCIkwPPKQ

Where should I start in diagnosing the issue? Any help will be very gratefully received.

I'm at the start of this learning journey so please keep it fairly idiot proof

James

[oliver90owner]

Although it does not immediately seem to be electrical, check for sparks at the plugs. That will determine if it is actually electrical, or more likely a fuel issue.

Although the electric fuel pump sounds loud it serms to be working properly. That in-line fuel filter could be blocked - throw it away is my advice on those.

‘Lumpy’ could mean too rich - like the engine was over-choked - and is now well flooded. Check the spark plugs to see if they are very wet.

Come back with results and maybe someone can help with that information.

[radioactiveman]

I didn’t really know you can over choke (this is my first choke!). I just pull it all the way out which now sounds incorrect

[Boomlander]

The choke is usually pulled out to start the engine from cold.
Once the engine fires the choke should be pushed slowly in without allowing the motor to die.
Drive off as soon as possible to get the engine up to working temperature.
Over use of the choke will result in the engine running too rich and a risk of flooding the plugs with petrol.

[radioactiveman]

I was showing off the car to my friend so it was just sitting in the garage full choke and that’s when it started sounding a bit lumpy

[Boomlander]

Yep......Running on full choke will definitely result in lumpy running!
My previous Moggy Jethro would not even drive off without full choke for a few seconds.
My latest little gem Willum fires up with just a hint of full choke and drives off straight away.
Basic rule is get the engine up to temperature by driving off as soon as possible and keep the use of the choke to the bare minimum.
Enjoy your motoring with a classic legendary car!

[myoldjalopy]

If it has been flooded, which sounds likely, it will probably fire up again in the morning - just don't drive too far on full choke, and certainly don't let it idle for long on full choke...

[oliver90owner]

As an aside, it can be dangerous to run an engine in confined space. It’s why it is generally recommended to drive in and reverse out (if the exhaust is at the rear) so that the garage does not fill with exhaust fumes which are, at best, not exactly healthy to breathe in!

[MorrisJohn]

Here’s the workshop manual section on that fault and possible causes/remedies. Hope this helps.

[radioactiveman]

I really appreciate everyone's responses.

I've been working today but I nipped out to see if it was a simple flood... sadly however now I just get a buzz at the point when it feels like it should fire

I recorded it as it's a bit difficult to describe: https://youtu.be/wzY633rQGK0

[geoberni]

There's no indication of the amount of time between
A - Leaving it running on Full Choke and then being switched off and
B - Not starting.

My guess would be the plugs all sooty black and soaking wet with fuel. The more you try and start it, the wetter they're getting.

Take all the Plugs out, brush them clean with an old tooth brush - Don't use a small wire brush as strands can break off and lodge in the plug causing more problems.

Refit plugs and try again.
Start turning it over on no more than 1/4 choke, increasing the choke if it sounds like it's trying to fire. Once it's running, gradually push the choke back in.

Never leave it running on Full Choke.
Some cars you can do that and they just Rev more as though it's a hand throttle, but not these engines and these carburettors.

sadly however now I just get a buzz at the point when it feels like it should fire

I recorded it as it's a bit difficult to describe: https://youtu.be/wzY633rQGK0

That 'Buzzing' is the Starter Bendix disengaging, most likely just at the point the engine is tying to start.

As it was working before, I'd clean those plugs if you haven't already done so.

[radioactiveman]

There's no indication of the amount of time between
A - Leaving it running on Full Choke and then being switched off and
B - Not starting.

My guess would be the plugs all sooty black and soaking wet with fuel. The more you try and start it, the wetter they're getting.

Take all the Plugs out, brush them clean with an old tooth brush - Don't use a small wire brush as strands can break off and lodge in the plug causing more problems.

Refit plugs and try again.
Start turning it over on no more than 1/4 choke, increasing the choke if it sounds like it's trying to fire. Once it's running, gradually push the choke back in.

Never leave it running on Full Choke.
Some cars you can do that and they just Rev more as though it's a hand throttle, but not these engines and these carburettors.

Lesson very much learned about the choke!

I'll take the plugs out and dry/clean them. Is the buzzing not of concern?

[MorrisJohn]

Remove a plug. Check it’s wet (follow Berni’s advice regarding its condition). If it is you have fuel. Fuel pump sounds fine from video. Place plug on the bulkhead, connected to its HT lead from distributor, and turn engine over, while checking it for a spark.

If you’re lucky enough to have a push button on your starter solenoid (highlighted in red in photo attached) you can do it all yourself from within the engine bay without needing to enlist a friend to turn the engine over. Just make sure key is turned so ignition is on.

It’ll be something simple.

[geoberni]

I'll take the plugs out and dry/clean them. Is the buzzing not of concern?

In my experience, it's a lot worse if it just cranks and cranks without any attempt to fire up.
I'll stand by to be corrected, but to me, it sounds as though the starter Bendix is disengaging just as/before the engine fires up, so the Starter is likely needing attention later But essentially, the engine should fire up in a couple of seconds and not get to that point where the Bendix disengages.

[radioactiveman]

AD44BB78-D2DB-4B0F-9ACE-94D33C7ACF6E.jpeg (2.21 MiB) Viewed 1804 times

That seems quite sooty (this is the first spark plug I’ve ever taken out, so I’m not an authority)...

[oliver90owner]

There are two types of starter dogs (which engage with the flywheel starter ring gear.

Modern ones are what we call ‘pre-engaged’ - where the starter motor dog is engaged mechanically/electrically by a solenoid before the stater motor windings are contacted to transmit turning motion. This type remains in mesh untill the starter is de-energised by the operator.

The typical Moggie Minor starter is of the older type which engages the starter dog by throwing it forward to engage with the starter ring. It will only remain in mesh while it is driving the starter ring. As soon as the flywheel removes the ‘grip’ the bendix (starter dog arrangement) withdraws from the starter ring (while the starter motor speeds on doing nothing) - that is what you are hearing. Generally the starter disengages when the engine fires and starts.

In your situation, there appears to be only just enough flywheel acceleration, from one weak cylinder firing, to allow the starter dog to disengage, but without the other cylinders firing to start the engine.

I would, at this stage, remove the plugs, clean as necessary and then dry them with a gas ring on our cooker, replacing while still hot (minding burning fingers or dropping them) and try the starter again immediately. Usually works.

That plug you removed is awful. The engine was either running rich for some time or the engine is burning oil (most likely the latter, or both).

[simmitc]

In that last video, it sounds as though the battery is getting a bit tired and the engine is cranking slower - hardly surprising if you've been trying to start for a couple of days; but it is not going to help matters. Charge the battery, clean the plugs. Leave the plugs out and spin the engine for a few seconds. Replace plugs. NB, make sure that you get the plug leads in the correct order. Now pull the choke half way out and try starting. Good luck, it will go as long as everything is set correctly.

[MorrisJohn]

It might be a bit less hassle for you simply to fit replacement spark plugs. Here are some suitable ones on eBay for example.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Mino ... 635-2958-0

[radioactiveman]

It might be a bit less hassle for you simply to fit replacement spark plugs. Here are some suitable ones on eBay for example.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Mino ... 635-2958-0

That does sound less faff. Is it okay to leave the spark plug holes ‘open’ for a couple of days?

[MorrisJohn]

Just put the old plugs in loosely by hand a couple of turns. To stop any dust/dirt or unwanted stuff ending up in there.