Another Master Cylinder issue....
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- geoberni
- Minor Legend
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Another Master Cylinder issue....
So, following on from my last Master Cylinder question, here's another little issue.
The background to this is that Basil had a lot of work done in the past, possibly some 20 years ago.
I've been sorting out the brakes, including new seals in the MC, and I've always wondered why the gearbox cover hole for the MC Filler Cap had been extended.... I now realise that the MC is about 1/2" too far forward and also possibly sitting a little higher than it should as I don't think the filler cap should be that far proud of the floor??
I came to this earth shattering conclusion based not just on the enlarged hole but because with the Push Rod fully screwed up I have barely 1/4" of Free Travel on the top of the pedal before the pushrod touched the MC piston; it should of course be 3/4" ....
The few images I can find online of installed MCs, all show the forward edge of the Filler Cap more in line with where I have added the yellow line. I can only assume that the restorer made their own chassis leg or it came with no MC mounting holes in it. And they messed up on the correct position.
Short of removing everything and making a meal of it, I think the easiest option to get the required free travel on the brake pedal is to shorten the Push Rod by about 1/4".
That won't interfere with the operation of the Rod, as the end fitting won't be too near the Rubber Sleeve, and given the arc of the Pedal, it should be more than enough to give the required 3/4" Free Travel on the pedal top.
Anyone got any alternative idea?
The background to this is that Basil had a lot of work done in the past, possibly some 20 years ago.
I've been sorting out the brakes, including new seals in the MC, and I've always wondered why the gearbox cover hole for the MC Filler Cap had been extended.... I now realise that the MC is about 1/2" too far forward and also possibly sitting a little higher than it should as I don't think the filler cap should be that far proud of the floor??
I came to this earth shattering conclusion based not just on the enlarged hole but because with the Push Rod fully screwed up I have barely 1/4" of Free Travel on the top of the pedal before the pushrod touched the MC piston; it should of course be 3/4" ....
The few images I can find online of installed MCs, all show the forward edge of the Filler Cap more in line with where I have added the yellow line. I can only assume that the restorer made their own chassis leg or it came with no MC mounting holes in it. And they messed up on the correct position.
Short of removing everything and making a meal of it, I think the easiest option to get the required free travel on the brake pedal is to shorten the Push Rod by about 1/4".
That won't interfere with the operation of the Rod, as the end fitting won't be too near the Rubber Sleeve, and given the arc of the Pedal, it should be more than enough to give the required 3/4" Free Travel on the pedal top.
Anyone got any alternative idea?
Basil the 1955 series II
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Certainly what I would do.
Maybe stamp "Short" onto it, or even just paint it some lurid colour to alert any future puzzled repairers.
Maybe stamp "Short" onto it, or even just paint it some lurid colour to alert any future puzzled repairers.
Alec Gatherer
Manchester-by-the-Ditch.
Manchester-by-the-Ditch.
Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
You are correct, regarding the height of the cylinder, proven by the fact that the access hole for the cap should have a rubber grommet fitted. (When the hole was round !)
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Les
I cannot recollect ever coming across a rubber grommet covering the hole for the master cylinder and I cannot find a grommet for the hole listed in the BMC parts list.
The top of the master cylinder filler plug protrudes 1/4" above the master cylinder cover plate.
The centre of the master cylinder filler cap should be exactly 5" measured rearwards from the join between the floor panel and rising toe board.
Below is photo of the correct positioning of the master cylinder relative to the footboard/floor panel join and the floor securing screws. The chassis leg is the original factory fitted item and has not been messed around with.
Phil Has the hole for the hydraulic brake pipe where it passes through the inside wall of the chassis leg been elongated? If it has then that will be a good indicator of the master cylinder having being moved forward.
I cannot recollect ever coming across a rubber grommet covering the hole for the master cylinder and I cannot find a grommet for the hole listed in the BMC parts list.
The top of the master cylinder filler plug protrudes 1/4" above the master cylinder cover plate.
The centre of the master cylinder filler cap should be exactly 5" measured rearwards from the join between the floor panel and rising toe board.
Below is photo of the correct positioning of the master cylinder relative to the footboard/floor panel join and the floor securing screws. The chassis leg is the original factory fitted item and has not been messed around with.
Phil Has the hole for the hydraulic brake pipe where it passes through the inside wall of the chassis leg been elongated? If it has then that will be a good indicator of the master cylinder having being moved forward.
- geoberni
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
No, all holes, for the 2 mounting bolts and the one for the brake pipe are round, but as you can see, whereas your Filler Cap circumference is to the rear of the line between the 2 bolt holes, mine is forward of that line.philthehill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:49 pm
Has the hole for the hydraulic brake pipe where it passes through the inside wall of the chassis leg been elongated? If it has then that will be a good indicator of the master cylinder having being moved forward.
The measurement you have of 5" is approximately 4.5" on mine, I say approx as the cover is not fitted.
Hence my belief that a past restorer has fitted a replacement chassis leg, or part thereof, perhaps of their own make rather than brought in.
As a relative newcomer to Minor ownership, I have no idea what the availability of replacement body parts were 20 odd years ago.
Basil the 1955 series II
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
The availability of body parts 20 plus years ago was at least as good as they are now.
A previous owner way back may have fitted a rear half chassis leg - R/H. Morris Minor Centre Pt No: CHS160 and got the alignment wrong which may be born out by the non elongation of the brake pipe holes. Is there a joint in the chassis leg indicating a half chassis leg being fitted?
The 5" measurement was taken from the joint between the floor panel and the toe board and is not dependent on the master cylinder cover being fitted or not.
This brake master cylinder positioning may be the reason your brake pedal spring was not an original factory fitted item and the ESM spring was not sufficiently tensioned due to its additional length.
What to do? All I can suggest is that you shorten the master cylinder operating rod by the required amount and make the best of a bad job.
A previous owner way back may have fitted a rear half chassis leg - R/H. Morris Minor Centre Pt No: CHS160 and got the alignment wrong which may be born out by the non elongation of the brake pipe holes. Is there a joint in the chassis leg indicating a half chassis leg being fitted?
The 5" measurement was taken from the joint between the floor panel and the toe board and is not dependent on the master cylinder cover being fitted or not.
This brake master cylinder positioning may be the reason your brake pedal spring was not an original factory fitted item and the ESM spring was not sufficiently tensioned due to its additional length.
What to do? All I can suggest is that you shorten the master cylinder operating rod by the required amount and make the best of a bad job.
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
My pickup also has a bung fitted.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/gearb ... er-p830835
Regards John.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/gearb ... er-p830835
Regards John.
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Les & John
Many thanks for the parts illustration and the link.
I have BMC parts list AKD 559 (third edition) for the Morris Quarter Ton Van/Pickup and the rubber grommet is not shown for the master cylinder cover hole.
It is listed as item No: 8 on parts illustration plate RD as fitting the gearbox cover hole only but has no specific part number.
Phil
Many thanks for the parts illustration and the link.
I have BMC parts list AKD 559 (third edition) for the Morris Quarter Ton Van/Pickup and the rubber grommet is not shown for the master cylinder cover hole.
It is listed as item No: 8 on parts illustration plate RD as fitting the gearbox cover hole only but has no specific part number.
Phil
Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Just to take this a little further, I have a reference to a part number for, ‘Master cylinder filler hole —cover plate’
which appears to be ACA8038 later revised to 88G536.
Oh no, I need to be careful here, before I turn into Chris !!
which appears to be ACA8038 later revised to 88G536.
Oh no, I need to be careful here, before I turn into Chris !!
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Les
The cover plate (not grommet) was originally Pt No: ALA1868.
Phil
The cover plate (not grommet) was originally Pt No: ALA1868.
Phil
Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
The wording from the manual is slightly ambiguous, as it could be interpreted as referring to the actual cover but the addition of a hyphen, to me, indicates it is actually referring to the grommet IN the cover. I also have ALA 1868 for cover,
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- geoberni
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Every time I investigate an issue with Basil it seems the answers through up more questions...
Ignore the grey scrapings in the photos, the G/Box Cover was sealed down with some sort of semi-hardening mastic, which only set where it was in contact with air; between the 2 surfaces it stayed very sticky. I was getting it on my gloves and spreading it everywhere.
So I've cleaned it all off and going to use the window seal stuff you can see in the photos.
But yes, there are clear signs of Chassis member sections replacement. The join on the LH and RH sides are significantly different positions.
The Pedals can't be any further rearward and the hook point in the Leg couldn't be any further forward as you'd never reach it to hook on. The G/Box support all looks fine and all the Chassis Holes and Cover Holes line up with no sign of alteration, so I just don't understand how the Chassis legs have the weld in a different place?
If the RH Section is further forward, as the MC holes would indicate, how come the GB Support and the Cover fasteners all line up with no sign of alteration??
Perhaps the Chassis Leg didn't come with those 2 holes in it??
I've not had a chance to see if the rear end of the Chassis legs are at the same point.
I'll update you all once I get it done.
It may be a little while.
The Mrs, who has tested Covid Neg several times in the past week with the 'Cold' she's got, has just got a Pos result after I made her check again, so we'll see how busy I am or if/when I get it.
Ignore the grey scrapings in the photos, the G/Box Cover was sealed down with some sort of semi-hardening mastic, which only set where it was in contact with air; between the 2 surfaces it stayed very sticky. I was getting it on my gloves and spreading it everywhere.
So I've cleaned it all off and going to use the window seal stuff you can see in the photos.
Interesting, I know from the issue I highlighted in 2019, where the restorer used a Cross Member without Torsion Bar adjustment that something a bit odd was going on. That's still on my to-do list... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70626&hilit=torsion+barphilthehill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:29 pm The availability of body parts 20 plus years ago was at least as good as they are now.
A previous owner way back may have fitted a rear half chassis leg - R/H. Morris Minor Centre Pt No: CHS160 and got the alignment wrong which may be born out by the non elongation of the brake pipe holes. Is there a joint in the chassis leg indicating a half chassis leg being fitted?
But yes, there are clear signs of Chassis member sections replacement. The join on the LH and RH sides are significantly different positions.
Just me being picky, the distance measured would be a little shorter i.e. Measure from a fixed point A to the crease in the Cover, (Red) or to the floor (Black)The 5" measurement was taken from the joint between the floor panel and the toe board and is not dependent on the master cylinder cover being fitted or not.
I think the Spring issue was a red herring.This brake master cylinder positioning may be the reason your brake pedal spring was not an original factory fitted item and the ESM spring was not sufficiently tensioned due to its additional length.
The Pedals can't be any further rearward and the hook point in the Leg couldn't be any further forward as you'd never reach it to hook on. The G/Box support all looks fine and all the Chassis Holes and Cover Holes line up with no sign of alteration, so I just don't understand how the Chassis legs have the weld in a different place?
If the RH Section is further forward, as the MC holes would indicate, how come the GB Support and the Cover fasteners all line up with no sign of alteration??
Perhaps the Chassis Leg didn't come with those 2 holes in it??
I've not had a chance to see if the rear end of the Chassis legs are at the same point.
That's what I'm going to do, grind it down a little at a time and do some trial fits, until I get to an optimum point. I'll aim for the 3/4" slack, if it looks like the End Fitting is going to interfere with the Rubber Cover, I'll stop. There's only about 1/4" at the moment, so any increase will be an improvement.What to do? All I can suggest is that you shorten the master cylinder operating rod by the required amount and make the best of a bad job.
I'll update you all once I get it done.
It may be a little while.
The Mrs, who has tested Covid Neg several times in the past week with the 'Cold' she's got, has just got a Pos result after I made her check again, so we'll see how busy I am or if/when I get it.
Basil the 1955 series II
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
The five inches were measured from the centre of the joint between the floor plate and the toe board. Ignore the master cylinder cover plate. The cover plate position can vary the joint cannot.
The joint between the two can be clearly seen in my photo above.
Thanks for the additional photos especially the one showing the joint between the two halves of the chassis leg plus the link. The half chassis leg has flanges on its rear end to locate it accurately fore and aft in relation to the cross member. As your cross member is not of the correct standard (see link) it may be that the cross member was not positioned correctly and that started the ball rolling resulting in your master cylinder being too far forward.
Anyway I am certain that you will overcome this Minor problem.
The joint between the two can be clearly seen in my photo above.
Thanks for the additional photos especially the one showing the joint between the two halves of the chassis leg plus the link. The half chassis leg has flanges on its rear end to locate it accurately fore and aft in relation to the cross member. As your cross member is not of the correct standard (see link) it may be that the cross member was not positioned correctly and that started the ball rolling resulting in your master cylinder being too far forward.
Anyway I am certain that you will overcome this Minor problem.
- geoberni
- Minor Legend
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Re: Another Master Cylinder issue....
Thanks Philphilthehill wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:31 pm The five inches were measured from the centre of the joint between the floor plate and the toe board. Ignore the master cylinder cover plate. The cover plate position can vary the joint cannot.
The joint between the two can be clearly seen in my photo above.
Thanks for the additional photos especially the one showing the joint between the two halves of the chassis leg plus the link. The half chassis leg has flanges on its rear end to locate it accurately fore and aft in relation to the cross member. As your cross member is not of the correct standard (see link) it may be that the cross member was not positioned correctly and that started the ball rolling resulting in your master cylinder being too far forward.
Anyway I am certain that you will overcome this Minor problem.
I thought you were referring to the measurement being taken in the centreline of the Lockheed Cap.
I didn't realise you'd offset it . My error.
Good thought about the Cross member being the Root of all Evil.
Basil the 1955 series II