Newbie

[Bill_qaz]

Hi all , after a selection of bmc finest in my younger years the one I've never owned is a moggie, so in looking for a usable classic for leisure only now approaching 70 I've purchased a 1960 4 door. I am not a purist so it has what I think are sensible mods for modern traffic.
Marina discs and remote servo, recon 1098 engine with unleaded head, indicators with hazards, alternator. It came with a great history file from two previous lady owners since 2002. Looking forward to spring and some first outings. I am sure I will have question as I get to know the car but my 1st is are they leather seats in the picture?

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[Chief]

I'd say (from the glossy sheen) that they're vinyl, as an aside if it is a 1960 car then someone has replaced the door cards with those from a 62-64 duotone model

[jagnut66]

Hi Bill,
Nice car.
I concur with Chief, they are most likely vinyl.
Best wishes,
Mike.

[Bill_qaz]

In reading the forum I thought wide pattern on seats is leather facings, so have I misunderstood? Thanks for the info on door cards as I said not a purist so happy they are in good condition. The duo tone is also in the rear so maybe whole interior changed?

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[geoberni]

Well the simple thing with the seats will be to look underneath. Real leather will look entirely different from manufactured vinyl.

As to the year, it may have been refurbished with latter door cards.
DVLA should know the year, however YJ is a Dundee allocation, so is the Log book annotated as 'Not Transferable'?
Surplus unused Scottish registrations are often used by DVLA to give an age related plate to a car that has been off the authorities books so the original plate is 'lost'.
I noticed the removal of the Trafficators looks a professional job.
There might be a small discrepancy in the actual year of manufacture.
If it was a 61-63 car, it would have a DB10 relay indicator system factory fitted, which could have subsequently been altered to have separate indicators. Have you got one of these on the wing?

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[Bill_qaz]

Thanks I will check under the seats.
I am aware its a non transferable Scottish number as I had similar on my 1952 AJS bike.
I will have to check the box on the wing, attached a pic that Ihave

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The chassis number is in the range for 1960 I believe from what I've read 813***
V5 says 1960 but it maybe an error but it's not an issue for me just interested an learning about it. Is trafalger blue a 1960 colour?

[ManyMinors]

With just those few photos to go on, I would say that your car is unlikely to be a 1960 model. Trafalgar Blue was not a colour option and the Lucas DB10 flasher relay present along with various other details suggest to me a slightly later car. The seats appear to be leather faced and correct for 1960 but the door cards are not, as others have already pointed out. It is easy to unscrew a chassis plate from one car and affix it to another of course but the chassis number is also stamped into the bulkhead. What can you see there? All the glass and every Lucas item on the car is dated, so it is easy to establish the likely age of any car. There were also many modifications between say, 1960 and 1962. The car pictured has a lot more 1962ish about it
Also, a 1960 would have no factory fitted seat belt mountings. I can see that your car has belts fitted but how are they mounted? That is a good giveaway too.

[Bill_qaz]

I don't think the unit geobeni highlighted is on mine as my pic looks different.
I will check the bulkhead chassis stamping when I can
The seat belts were definitely retrofitted I will have a look how they are mounted.
Also the other clues suggested, interesting detective work

[ManyMinors]

The DB10 unit on Geoberni's car is retrofitted in a slightly non-standard position. They were factory fitted to cars which didn't have trafficators - either because they were built for certain export markets or built after the trafficators were deleted during the latter part of 1961. Those export cars would still have had the slots in the bodywork of course. If you take the interior trim off the "B" pillar (where the seatbelt is mounted), you will clearly see whether or not your car had trafficator slots and/or seatbelt mountings factory fitted. This is another pretty good way of dating a car.

Please don't feel that I am trying to be negative about your new purchase. If it does turn out to be an entirely different car to the one you expected, you could either live with it and enjoy it, or seek redress from the seller - especially if he is a dealer.

[geoberni]

Bill
It looks to me that you do have a DB10 system, it's just not in exactly the same position as mine, which was a retrofit about 20+ yrs ago.
Yours is just slightly forward.
Your car also has the 'Elephant Trunk' heater, which I believe didn't come in until around 1963, and that is not a simple retrofit like the indicators are.
To me, based on the physical evidence we've discussed, it looks like an early '63 car.

If you can get the actual chassis/body number, as stamped, I'd go for a Gaydon Heritage Certificate.
https://www.britishmotormuseum.co.uk/ar ... rtificates
That'll date it to the day it came off the production line.

[myoldjalopy]

I agree with 'ManyMinors' that it is unlikely to be a 1960 car. And to go further, it is almost certain that the car was never fitted with trafficators, rather than their removal being "a professional job".
It is very common now that trim and seats have been replaced over the years by items from other cars, not to mention other parts. The early 1000 models in particular seem to have suffered such indignities

[simmitc]

Bill, I can't quite make out from the pictures you've posted so far, but are your wipers working as "clap hands" or parallel?

Also are the switches for your lights and wipers pull on or flick down for on?

Looking at the fuse box, are the terminals screw connections or spade connections?

Don't give out the full chassis number, but does it start MAS3 or MAS5?

The car might have been resprayed, so you could look behind the glove boxes and other trim to see if there's any evidence of an earlier colour/

You could ask the DVLA for a history of the vehicle. They won;t give you previous keepres, but should be ale to tell you when (if) the number was changed and what it was before.

None of this really matters from the point of view of enjoying the car, it's mainly a matter of interest. Over the years, many cars have been modified either because worn out parts were changed for "better" ones form a scrap yard, or because individual owners preferred a different style. Add to that the changeover from one design to another when the factory used up old parts or started on new ones, and there is bound to be some confusion!

[Bill_qaz]

Thanks for all the useful info guys. I don't care if the car is 1960 or a bit later or a hybrid I will still enjoy it. I am just enjoying researching. I am booking an appointment at Gaydon reading room to look up the history as its not far for me.
It does have clap hands wipers and pull type switches including starter, hinge down lined metal lids on both gloveboxes. I know the original cherished reg that it was on and have posted to contact the owner of the green 1967 its on now. The mot from 1993 shows both reg numbers so I assume this is when the change happened.and I have every mot since then until exemption. When I can get to the storage I will look to confirm chassis stamping in bulkhead.
Eat your heart out sherlock our mystery will be solved

[Bill_qaz]

Bill
It looks to me that you do have a DB10 system, it's just not in exactly the same position as mine, which was a retrofit about 20+ yrs ago.
Yours is just slightly forward.
Your car also has the 'Elephant Trunk' heater, which I believe didn't come in until around 1963, and that is not a simple retrofit like the indicators are.
To me, based on the physical evidence we've discussed, it looks like an early '63 car.

If you can get the actual chassis/body number, as stamped, I'd go for a Gaydon Heritage Certificate.
https://www.britishmotormuseum.co.uk/ar ... rtificates
That'll date it to the day it came off the production line.

I looked through the huge pile of paperwork that came with the car and in 2002 fit modified late heater High output and another for fit later type heater tube vent (includes modifying the bulkhead. Would this be relevant to your observation on elephant trunk heater?

[ManyMinors]

I assumed that the later heater fitted top your car was fitted later because I'm not sure that they were ever factory fitted to cars with the earlier wiper pattern which your car has. I thought both of those upgrades (late heater and late "tandem" wiper pattern) were around the same time? Late 1963?

Either way, The simple test for a 1960 car is to check for evidence of the factory fitting of mountings for trafficators and seatbelts
And check the date codes on the glass and Lucas parts. Of course every old car will have had some replacement parts fitted over the years but a 1960 car won't have a full set of (for example) 1962 windows and switchgear.

[mobylette]

I'm 99.9% sure those are leather (faced) seats and correct for the year.

[geoberni]

I looked through the huge pile of paperwork that came with the car and in 2002 fit modified late heater High output and another for fit later type heater tube vent (includes modifying the bulkhead. Would this be relevant to your observation on elephant trunk heater?

Yes, that would be the Elephant Trunk, someone clearly spent a lot of time and effort to upgrade areas that wouldn't be on most people's list.
I mean, a heater is a heater; perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not convinced the big fresh air vent made that significant a difference.

[POMMReg]

Body code starts with a 3 it's later than 1960.

Date on wiper motor?

[Bill_qaz]

Body code starts with a 3 it's later than 1960.

Date on wiper motor?

I will look for the body code but I think the wiper motor is in the records as having been replaced. Thanks for the advice.

[geoberni]

Bill
You can check the glass against this info from the MMOC Potteries branch website http://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/ID/Glass.htm

There does seem to be some different interpretation of the markings though.
This website for example, has very similar info but also illustrates it with photos and goes to the individual month....
http://www.bobine.nl/turner/01-general- ... ate-codes/