Hi,
What are the most common reasons for oil contamination of the clutch?
I get it worst after a motorway run. (ie. sustained high revs.)
Cheers.[ This Message was edited by: catsoup on 01-04-2002 01:56 ]
Oil getting into clutch?
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tuning72
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- Location: Oxfordshire
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Hi
If from the Engine, which is most likely.
I suspect you have the old type oil seal. It creaps along the rear main bearing into clutch ,then centrifugal force sends it outwards. Some times there is a hole in the bottom of the bell housing, where excess oil/friction material can escape.
Check your oil consumption Engine and G/box.
From the drips one can normally tell-engine or g/box oil..........CURE.
There is a modified and late type "Lip" oil seal that does the job.Unfortunately it means engine out! The g/box relies on a "scroll" type seal. It generally means the front g/box bearing is worn> g/box out!
Many MM firms advertise this Modification.
Just a thought ? What type of engine oil do you use? Maybe you use a "Straight" viscosity? (We had to change oil for Summer then Winter in 50`s?) Thats why the sump can be removed in -situ on the "Oldies" (No detergents). The oil would certainly get "thinner" on a long stretch. A decent 20/50 multigrade does hold its viscosity better. Even some high grade "Turbo" oils are quite good.....Sorry for this "Book",I hope this helps..Ivor
If from the Engine, which is most likely.
I suspect you have the old type oil seal. It creaps along the rear main bearing into clutch ,then centrifugal force sends it outwards. Some times there is a hole in the bottom of the bell housing, where excess oil/friction material can escape.
Check your oil consumption Engine and G/box.
From the drips one can normally tell-engine or g/box oil..........CURE.
There is a modified and late type "Lip" oil seal that does the job.Unfortunately it means engine out! The g/box relies on a "scroll" type seal. It generally means the front g/box bearing is worn> g/box out!
Many MM firms advertise this Modification.
Just a thought ? What type of engine oil do you use? Maybe you use a "Straight" viscosity? (We had to change oil for Summer then Winter in 50`s?) Thats why the sump can be removed in -situ on the "Oldies" (No detergents). The oil would certainly get "thinner" on a long stretch. A decent 20/50 multigrade does hold its viscosity better. Even some high grade "Turbo" oils are quite good.....Sorry for this "Book",I hope this helps..Ivor
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Willie
- Minor Legend
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Lo,'Tuning' has covered most of it but it is
also possible that the oil in the clutch
housing is coming from the OIL PUMP. This has
some very narrow gasket sections which can leak if not correctly assembled. Most so called reconditioned engines seem to leak at
the rear crankshaft these days, it was a lousy design to start with.
Willie
also possible that the oil in the clutch
housing is coming from the OIL PUMP. This has
some very narrow gasket sections which can leak if not correctly assembled. Most so called reconditioned engines seem to leak at
the rear crankshaft these days, it was a lousy design to start with.
Willie
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olonas
Just another thought - is there excessive pressure in crankcase? This will tend to push oil out through seal. Caused by choked or partially choked ventilation. Check pipe between rocker cover and air filter plus breather pipe on tappet cover (full of "gunge". Or dare I say worn piston rings causing "blowpast" into crankcase! How's the cylinder compression, should be about 125psi (12 bar) Has contamination only just started or has it been a gradually worsening process?
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tuning72
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Hi
Forgive me this tip?
If you only do Motorway occasionally. I go back in time-Is there a small hole in the top of Bell housing? If not use one underneath. Get some "Fullers Earth" just sprinkle a little from top OR use bicycle pump. Fill pump connector and blast it up into clutch! NO this is not "April Fools day". The "Fullers earth" will dry out the oil without harming the clutch.On 30`s cars you always carried some "Fullers Earth"?
Shows my age does`nt it?...........Ivor
PS I have drilled a hole (about)3/8" in top sometimes. Grease the drill bit to catch the shavings, put blanking plug in afterwards.[ This Message was edited by: tuning72 on 02-04-2002 08:28 ]
Forgive me this tip?
If you only do Motorway occasionally. I go back in time-Is there a small hole in the top of Bell housing? If not use one underneath. Get some "Fullers Earth" just sprinkle a little from top OR use bicycle pump. Fill pump connector and blast it up into clutch! NO this is not "April Fools day". The "Fullers earth" will dry out the oil without harming the clutch.On 30`s cars you always carried some "Fullers Earth"?
Shows my age does`nt it?...........Ivor
PS I have drilled a hole (about)3/8" in top sometimes. Grease the drill bit to catch the shavings, put blanking plug in afterwards.[ This Message was edited by: tuning72 on 02-04-2002 08:28 ]
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catsoup
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Hi again,
Thanks for your replies.
There is no presure in the crank case.
I am sure that the oil is coming from the
engine, because I have to keep putting it in!
So I guess I need to get the engine out again.
I am interested in these oil seal upgrades you,
the crank has a scroll type oil seal at the moment,
with adjustable plates which line up with it, so
how can a rubber type oil seal fit in there?
Cheers.
Thanks for your replies.
There is no presure in the crank case.
I am sure that the oil is coming from the
engine, because I have to keep putting it in!
So I guess I need to get the engine out again.
I am interested in these oil seal upgrades you,
the crank has a scroll type oil seal at the moment,
with adjustable plates which line up with it, so
how can a rubber type oil seal fit in there?
Cheers.
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catsoup
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Hi,
Its a 1966. Im pretty sure there isn't a rubber
seal there
I took the sump off last night, and checked to see
if I could clean the scrols without removing the
engine. But alas no. It seems the crank bearing
at that end is trapped by the back plate.
I did notice that there was alot of 'sludge' in there too.
So I am hoping that a good clean will solve the problem.
I spoke to the Birmingham Morris Minor center about
the kit. They said that to fit it I need to get the
crank ground down, to change its shape at the
end. It then alows you to fit a 'normal seal'. (Which
I assume is rubber.) Does anyone know of any other kits,
that do not require such drastic modifications?
Cheers.
(The kit also costs about 60 quid, but I would pay this
for the problem to go away!)
Its a 1966. Im pretty sure there isn't a rubber
seal there
I took the sump off last night, and checked to see
if I could clean the scrols without removing the
engine. But alas no. It seems the crank bearing
at that end is trapped by the back plate.
I did notice that there was alot of 'sludge' in there too.
So I am hoping that a good clean will solve the problem.
I spoke to the Birmingham Morris Minor center about
the kit. They said that to fit it I need to get the
crank ground down, to change its shape at the
end. It then alows you to fit a 'normal seal'. (Which
I assume is rubber.) Does anyone know of any other kits,
that do not require such drastic modifications?
Cheers.
(The kit also costs about 60 quid, but I would pay this
for the problem to go away!)
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tuning72
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Hi
I think "Sludge" might be a usefull clue?
I wonder if the "Sludge is a left over from those days? Then there was only one type of oil more or less, which was vegetable based.
As I said before, Sumps were designed to be removed reguarly to clean out "Sludge". These modern oils with all their additives.detergents,Graphite,suspension ability and so on were developed so that it extended the servicing intervals.
When it is all cleaned out, Look at using a "Flushing" oil, pay attention to instructions on tin. We always used this after cleaning. With a decent Muli-grade oil, I suspect your "Oiling" would deminish and no "Sludging" will occur again. I know the cost of this mod. is expensive but even "new" engines should be altered.
1966? Yep, that makes sense,the later ones were into Multi-grade and detergents?..Ivor
PS. The "Mini" fliter mod. is worthwhile- "Micro" filter.
I think "Sludge" might be a usefull clue?
I wonder if the "Sludge is a left over from those days? Then there was only one type of oil more or less, which was vegetable based.
As I said before, Sumps were designed to be removed reguarly to clean out "Sludge". These modern oils with all their additives.detergents,Graphite,suspension ability and so on were developed so that it extended the servicing intervals.
When it is all cleaned out, Look at using a "Flushing" oil, pay attention to instructions on tin. We always used this after cleaning. With a decent Muli-grade oil, I suspect your "Oiling" would deminish and no "Sludging" will occur again. I know the cost of this mod. is expensive but even "new" engines should be altered.
1966? Yep, that makes sense,the later ones were into Multi-grade and detergents?..Ivor
PS. The "Mini" fliter mod. is worthwhile- "Micro" filter.
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ianselva
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The scroll should be able to cope with normal amounts of oil that pass through the main bearings. Unless the main bearings at some time have been so worn as to allow the housing to get worn away. I believe the kit from the Bath morrie centre does not need the crank grinding and will fit without mods the catalogue says:
OWN135 Oil seal conversion for rear of crankshaft. A clever device to carry a conventional oil seal (running on the flywheel mounting flange) to stop oil leakage from the rear main bearing. Please state engine type and capacity. From 48.00 Per
OWN135 Oil seal conversion for rear of crankshaft. A clever device to carry a conventional oil seal (running on the flywheel mounting flange) to stop oil leakage from the rear main bearing. Please state engine type and capacity. From 48.00 Per
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newagetraveller
- Minor Fan
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- Location: Huntingdon
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This looks like one of those engine problems that could be solved by stripping it down, cleaning everything thoroughly, blowing the sludge out of the oilways and putting it back together again. It sounds drastic and it takes a while but it is relatively cheap and easy to do and it is usually effective.
If you go via the route of fitting the rear seal mod you ought to do this anyway.
Most Morris Minors don't have the mod and never get oil on their clutches.
While you have the engine apart you may well find another worn part that is causing the problem.[ This Message was edited by: newagetraveller on 04-04-2002 11:29 ]
If you go via the route of fitting the rear seal mod you ought to do this anyway.
Most Morris Minors don't have the mod and never get oil on their clutches.
While you have the engine apart you may well find another worn part that is causing the problem.[ This Message was edited by: newagetraveller on 04-04-2002 11:29 ]
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tuning72
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Hi
God I hesitate to say anything in Message board? Flushing Oil- It works by "softening" carbon deposits which can then either go when you drain off, or be trapped in the Filter bowl (READ instructions, some recconmend removing filter element). It is designed to disolve sludge and remove the softened carbon. Most is held in "suspension" so that the particles will not damage the bearigs etc; You can liken it to washing powder/liquid + an amount of oil to lubricate, thats why most is done at "Tick-over". I personally would try this first, Less expensive and frankly nothing to lose but everything to gain.
I agree with the comment to clean all parts. One would need a Hot "Tricoethylene"
(not sure of spelling,but sounds like this)
bath to remove the carbon. Something that can only be done on stripped engine.
.........Good luck...Ivor
God I hesitate to say anything in Message board? Flushing Oil- It works by "softening" carbon deposits which can then either go when you drain off, or be trapped in the Filter bowl (READ instructions, some recconmend removing filter element). It is designed to disolve sludge and remove the softened carbon. Most is held in "suspension" so that the particles will not damage the bearigs etc; You can liken it to washing powder/liquid + an amount of oil to lubricate, thats why most is done at "Tick-over". I personally would try this first, Less expensive and frankly nothing to lose but everything to gain.
I agree with the comment to clean all parts. One would need a Hot "Tricoethylene"
(not sure of spelling,but sounds like this)
bath to remove the carbon. Something that can only be done on stripped engine.
.........Good luck...Ivor
I wouldn't say you hesitate in any form T72, quite the opposite, the information I posted has been borne out by people of your own era in fact. Not all the oil is removed from the engine, what about the nooks and crannies that dont drain? The suspended muck is going to settle somewhere once general oil is added, otherwise it would not build up in the first place. But unless the engine is stripped, as Newage suggested I still say dont disturb any hardened build-up. Unlike ronseal not everything does what it says on the tin. Lets agree to differ!
les
les
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tuning72
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Hi
OK Les, you have convinced me that any help I may be able to give, although I go to great lengths to say why,how, I would do such and such. I attract remarks that are quite frankly more than just comments.
All contributions to Message board by me are MY thoughts and anyone can agree, disagree. Thats good healthy debate. I will seriosly have to consider my participation.
What is not shown here are the many "E" mails I get from around the world supporting me or adding to, my help comments....
.......including an invitation to a competitor mag?.....Ivor
OK Les, you have convinced me that any help I may be able to give, although I go to great lengths to say why,how, I would do such and such. I attract remarks that are quite frankly more than just comments.
All contributions to Message board by me are MY thoughts and anyone can agree, disagree. Thats good healthy debate. I will seriosly have to consider my participation.
What is not shown here are the many "E" mails I get from around the world supporting me or adding to, my help comments....
.......including an invitation to a competitor mag?.....Ivor
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ianselva
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The more I think about this , the more I am convinced that nothing short of an engine out is going to cure it. I believe that all the talk about the grooves in the scroll and flushing oil is just a red herring . ALL in line BMC A series had just a scroll , none had a rubber seal as standard, and they all have a drain hole in the bellhousing.
The problem is most likely worn main bearings , letting too much oil past in the first place , or as someone else suggested the tin cover over the oil pump leaking. Either way the quickest and best solution in the long run is to take the motor out and see. Unpleasant but better to do the job properly once than several attempts at bodging. The clutch plate must be contaminated by now anyway.
The problem is most likely worn main bearings , letting too much oil past in the first place , or as someone else suggested the tin cover over the oil pump leaking. Either way the quickest and best solution in the long run is to take the motor out and see. Unpleasant but better to do the job properly once than several attempts at bodging. The clutch plate must be contaminated by now anyway.
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catsoup
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Hi all,
This is strange... It seems to be fixed. The only thing I can
attribute it too is:
When I took the sump off the
other day, and removed the bolts from the rear
bearing, I was unable to remove the bearing, beacuse the
engine rear plate was in the way. However while the bearing
was wobbling around, I squirted a load of WD40 behind it, hopefully
hitting the scrolls.
Nothing else has changed. But since then I have done about 500 miles
with no clutch slip, or loss of oil!
Thanks for all your advice.
This is strange... It seems to be fixed. The only thing I can
attribute it too is:
When I took the sump off the
other day, and removed the bolts from the rear
bearing, I was unable to remove the bearing, beacuse the
engine rear plate was in the way. However while the bearing
was wobbling around, I squirted a load of WD40 behind it, hopefully
hitting the scrolls.
Nothing else has changed. But since then I have done about 500 miles
with no clutch slip, or loss of oil!
Thanks for all your advice.
-
tuning72
- Minor Friendly
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- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:00 am
- Location: Oxfordshire
- MMOC Member: No
Hi
I am pleased it all has worked out.
It makes sense that hardened sludge filled the scrolls and you lost the "Reverse thread"
action of the scroll allowing the oil to seep through. WD40 has some of the flushing oil additives. They loosen carbon!
It used to be the practice to paint a special primer inside the engine to lesson the effect of vegetable based oils....Ivor
I am pleased it all has worked out.
It makes sense that hardened sludge filled the scrolls and you lost the "Reverse thread"
action of the scroll allowing the oil to seep through. WD40 has some of the flushing oil additives. They loosen carbon!
It used to be the practice to paint a special primer inside the engine to lesson the effect of vegetable based oils....Ivor
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Chris Morley
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Ivor - please don't leave the board, you have a lot of knowledge we need ( I've certainly learnt many things ). Other sensible members have agreed to disagree with you on the occasions when you have aired unconventional views. That's the way it should be.
Only a few individuals have not respected your opinions and personally abused you. From memory, I believe they are not the kind of members this board wants or needs. If you feel that any individual is being offensive or insulting, please e-mail the webmaster. He can then warn, or ban the offenders from the board.
Only a few individuals have not respected your opinions and personally abused you. From memory, I believe they are not the kind of members this board wants or needs. If you feel that any individual is being offensive or insulting, please e-mail the webmaster. He can then warn, or ban the offenders from the board.