Setting distributor timing from scratch

[Napoleon Boot]

Like a fool, I thought I'd get the engine running a bit more sweetly, and moved the distributor without marking its original position first. I've been kicking myself ever since.
To cut a long story short, I've scoured the forum and read and (I think) understood every thread I found, particularly this one from 2017 (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66008&p=599079&hilit=25d#p599079).

However I cannot get the engine to start.
This afternoon, I carefully checked that the spark plug leads are in the right order (1,3,4,2), found TDC by poking a rod into the no. 1 spark plug hole and finding where the piston is highest on the compression stroke, and when I did the notch in the crankshaft pulley was lined up with the mark on the timing cover. I rotated the distributor body until the rotor arm pointed towards the contact for spark plug lead no. 1.

I thought this would get me roughly into a position where the engine would fire, but it didn't. I have electronic ignition, so couldn't use a test lamp to find where the points just start to open, so I got a mate to crank the engine while I twiddled the distributor. I started by moving the vernier screw, but this didn't yield any results so I tried twisting the entire distributor body.

I have a photo of how it looked before I touched it, so I know roughly where it should be pointing and I know it's not 180 degrees out. All that happens is that the starter motor whirs unsteadily and there's a regular 'pttthhh' noise coming from somewhere on the engine. The battery is getting low from repeated cranking so I'm charging it up at the moment.

I've made a video (https://youtu.be/8RMOgGEBeKs) in case anyone can glean any clues from the noises it's making. Looking at the spark plugs as they fire (I've slowed the video down) they seem to be firing irregularly, could this be the problem?
The car was running until I rotated the distributor so I think that's the issue, though I did also touch the fuel mixture nut on the carb; I wound that back to where it was originally (two full turns down) so the mixture should be correct again.

If anyone has any idea what may be going on I'd be really grateful, I'm at my wit's end!

[pgp001]

When you had N°1 at TDC, what direction was the rotor arm pointing in, it should be approx 2 o'clock.
If it was at approx 4 o'clock then you will be firing number 1 cylinder at the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

If the timing is in fact correct for the rotor arm and lead positions, are the plugs getting wet when trying to start it ?

Phil

[Napoleon Boot]

When you had N°1 at TDC, what direction was the rotor arm pointing in, it should be approx 2 o'clock.
If it was at approx 4 o'clock then you will be firing number 1 cylinder at the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

If the timing is in fact correct for the rotor arm and lead positions, are the plugs getting wet when trying to start it ?

Phil

Yep, pointing to two o'clock which is where I remember it pointing before. The plugs were wet when I took one out, I assumed it was from all the unsuccessful starts. Could this be a clue? I have the choke out but haven't pushed the throttle at all.

[Napoleon Boot]

Just to clarify, as I forgot to say - this is a Lucas 25D distributor, with a new cap from Distributor Doctor, new leads and spark plugs from Accuspark and a new Accuspark Stealth ignition module.

[pgp001]

You might want to leave the plugs out overnight and let the fuel in the cylinders evaporate away, then give it another go tomorrow.
Before you put the plugs back in check to see if you are getting a nice fat blue spark.

I have not seen those neon plug caps before, is it possible they are sapping some of the energy from the spark ?

I have exactly the same Accuspark setup on my Traveller by the way.

Phil

[Napoleon Boot]

You might want to leave the plugs out overnight and let the fuel in the cylinders evaporate away, then give it another go tomorrow.
Before you put the plugs back in check to see if you are getting a nice fat blue spark.

I have not seen those neon plug caps before, is it possible they are sapping some of the energy from the spark ?

I have exactly the same Accuspark setup on my Traveller by the way.

Phil

Thanks Phil, that's a good idea. I wasn't sure how long it takes for the fuel to evaporate, the longer the better I guess! I only put those spark caps on for the video, to check/show that the firing order was correct and that there's a spark, the rest of the time the leads were plugged straight to the plugs. The battery was down to 12.1v by the end of the afternoon so I'll get it charged right up before trying again. I might try putting the old points back in and doing the test lamp trick to make sure the points are opening at exactly the right time as well.
I've been really pleased with the Accuspark set up since I put it in, just a shame I fiddled around really.
Seb

[pgp001]

I bought myself an Accuspark H8000 strobe lamp for timing mine, as you have found out it is not possible to set the static timing like you do with points.

Phil

[kennatt]

if you tried starting before returning timing to original position with the choke fully out,if the timing was now way out its likely that all you have done is flood the engine.Now the timing is returned to original and the engine has dried out you may find it will start. If you had pushed the choke in and pushed the accelerator down to fully open the throttle and held it down and then spun it over you may have found that it would clear the cylinders of excess fuel (Standard method of clearing a flooded engine) and it would have fired up. Think you may find it starts this morning if you have left it with the plugs out overnight,if not try above . good luck.

[oliver90owner]

It’s a hall effect trigger, so simply setting the engine to TDC (or wherever you wish, for slight advance) and rotating the distributor in the correct direction will cause a spark as the electronics trigger. Tighten distributor at that point and spark should be roughly set for purposes of starting the engine. Can’t be simpler than that.

Then either adjust distributor for best running, or by strobe with the timing marks, when the engine is hot and is job done (assuming the carburation setting is correct, of course). Maybe the OP will have learned to only change one setting at a time so that they know where any occuring fault lies.

[panky]

Just to clarify, as I forgot to say - this is a Lucas 25D distributor, with a new cap from Distributor Doctor, new leads and spark plugs from Accuspark and a new Accuspark Stealth ignition module.

I found I needed to turn the dizzy a lot (anti-clockwise) when I fitted the Stealth system, in fact I needed to move the leads round anti-clockwise one position so the vac advance didn't hit the oil pressure sender before I got the timing right. Ran lovely afterwards

[Napoleon Boot]

Thanks all,

I'm still charging the battery but I've left the spark plugs out and will have another go as soon as I can.

Maybe the OP will have learned to only change one setting at a time so that they know where any occuring fault lies.

I think this is what's called poetic justice; it was drilled into me in chemistry on the first day of secondary school that you must only ever change one variable at a time, and I've banged on about it ever since. In mitigation, I did think that I'd got the fuel mixture right before I touched the dizzy.

The situation was that I'd been running a bit rich for a while, and the exhaust beat was a bit uneven. I got the engine up to temperature and used the lifting pin and a Colortune to adjust the mixture until it sounded about right - I had to lean it up quite a bit. Having done that, the exhaust was still sounding uneven, and as I have new leads and plugs, I decided it must be the timing that need adjusting. Unfortunately I didn't mark it before moving it. I got the engine running again by wiggling the distributor while turning the starter, however it would stall when the revs went down, possibly because the mixture was now too lean.

I put the carb mixture nut back to original position yesterday before fiddling with the distributor again, but wet plugs suggests the mixture is now too rich again. In an ideal world I would get it running well enough to get to a garage and then let someone who knows what they're doing to set it all up properly, the car has run a bit rich and idled at high revs since I got it. Unfortunately the local MG/vintage garage doesn't seem to be open yet and I couldn't get there if it was!

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, indeed....

[pgp001]

Take note of what "Oliver90owner" said above.

With your neon spark testers you should be able to set the static timing with the engine parked at or just before TDC as he suggests.

That would be my next move before trying to start it again.

Phil

[Napoleon Boot]

Thanks both,
Suggestion noted and understood- that’ll be my next move. Thank you everyone for the support and help, this forum has been incredibly valuable as I’ve learned to live with an old car. It may look like I just get into stupid messes all the time but the car is coming on in leaps and bounds so I must be learning something!
Seb

[pgp001]

Just to clarify, as I forgot to say - this is a Lucas 25D distributor, with a new cap from Distributor Doctor, new leads and spark plugs from Accuspark and a new Accuspark Stealth ignition module.

I found I needed to turn the dizzy a lot (anti-clockwise) when I fitted the Stealth system, in fact I needed to move the leads round anti-clockwise one position so the vac advance didn't hit the oil pressure sender before I got the timing right. Ran lovely afterwards

I am glad you reminded me of that, I had to do the same on mine and the distributor is now very close to my Tee connector for the oil pressure gauge take off.
I have just nipped out and re-positioned the distributor drive shaft on my spare engine that is almost finished, I moved it clockwise by one tooth from the standard position so that should give more clearance.

Phil

[Napoleon Boot]

She's running again! I worked my way through methodically, finding TDC on the bottom of the crankshaft pulley, checking no.1 piston was at the top of the compression stroke.
There's a painted mark on the fan pulley, and when I first checked, it lined up perfectly when no. 1 piston was at TDC. Rather than crawl under the car each time, or go poking into the spark plug hole, I thought I'd be safe to use this mark as a reference. Big mistake! After a couple of hours trying to get a test lamp to go out at just the right time every time, I realised that the fan pulley wasn't in sync with the crank shaft pulley, and my reference was totally unreliable. It was just chance that it had been in the right place the first time.

Having realised my error, I then noticed that the rotor arm was pointing to ten o'clock at TDC, not two o'clock. The distributor body can't turn any further anti-clockwise as there's a bit of the engine in the way. So remembering what I read on here, I moved the leads around to keep the firing order correct. At this point the lead on my knackered old points gave up the ghost and shorted, so I stuck the electronic ignition module back in, said a prayer, turned the key and the engine started! (PS Oliver90owner, I did try using the neon spark plug testers to set the timing but wasn't getting a flash when I turned either the distributor or the starting handle, which is why I resorted to using points and a test lamp. That said I had a hell of a time getting the trigger ring in position to start with, so that may be the reason, I'll try again later out of curiosity).

I've now tightened the distributor clamp back up and will be leaving it alone! The car now sounds more like I'd expect- it used to idle at over 2,000 revs (assuming the rev counter can be trusted) and it's now idling about 1,000 revs once warmed up with the choke out the first few mm. It does start to die when fully pushed in though - here's a video: https://youtu.be/rILZZ-6483o

I'm reluctant to touch anything else but don't want to drive round with the choke out all the time. Am I right in thinking that I should turn the throttle stop adjusting screw on top of the carb to raise the idle speed once the engine is warmed up and the choke is fully in?

[Napoleon Boot]

Just an update; after doing some reading on here, it looked like the fuel mixture might be too weak, so I enrichened it by one flat and now it’s happy even at low revs. Went for a 40 minute drive and all was well, though a bit sluggish moving away from a standstill.
It’s mostly 20mph limits round here but when I was able to get to the dizzy heights of 25-30mph, I could hear a tinkling sound, like bubbles bursting in a fizzy drink can. Is this the pinking I’ve read about? If so, do I retard the timing a little with the vernier screw then drive up a hill to see if it’s cured?

Seb

[oliver90owner]

Probably. What is the advance on the timing according to the timing mark (using a strobe light)? Fuel mixture could be contributing also.

[Napoleon Boot]

Probably. What is the advance on the timing according to the timing mark (using a strobe light)? Fuel mixture could be contributing also.

I'm going to order a strobe light as I haven't got one; I think the timing may be too retarded.

Went for a ten mile round trip to my allotment yesterday. The engine got very hot very quickly (had to put the heater on to cool it down in a traffic jam as the needle was approaching 'H'). When pulling away from a standstill (at lights, turning onto major roads) there was very very little power - I actually found myself rocking backwards and forwards muttering "come on come on!" in an attempt to will the car forward. Once the car got up to about 15mph it would start accelerating fairly normally, but starting off was slow and painful and I got a lot of angry beeps from drivers behind me.
No tinkling sound this time, but there was a noise which sounded like the fuel pump running like crazy when the car was moving.

I cleaned the plugs before the return trip and looked at them when I got home, they weren't wet and didn't seem particularly sooty.
(EDIT - I tried to check the mixture by lifting the pin on the carb, the engine revs didn't seem to change at all).
The fuel mixture nut on the carb is 12 flats down, so should be about right, but there was a petrolly smell in the car; unburnt fuel from incomplete combustion? The exhaust is very loud and the beat isn't very regular - here's a video of it idling in neutral: https://youtu.be/ZMKltjK9TWM

Anyone got any ideas? Hoping to be able to drive my partner to work when she returns next weekend so I'd love to get the car to behave itself....

Seb

[oliver90owner]

What colour were the plug electrodes and ceramic cone? There is no way they should be wet after even only a 5 mile trip with the engine up to temperature. What colour was the tailpipe? I think it needs tuning up properly before looking for other faults

‘Pinking’ is a sound which is fairly obvious once one is able to recognise the signs. These engines should easily idle down to around 500rpm and run smoothly, although they are usually set above that.

An engine only requires three things to run. A suitable air/fuel mixture, compression and an ignition spark at the correct time. Lubrication and cooling are also necessities for continued operation, of course. ‘Suck’, ‘squeeze‘, ‘bang’ and ‘blow’ are the terms often used to describe a four-cycle engine. The bang should really be ‘power‘ of course and the term ‘suck’ is quite an un-scientific idea. But a simple sequence, really.

[Napoleon Boot]

What colour were the plug electrodes and ceramic cone? There is no way they should be wet after even only a 5 mile trip with the engine up to temperature. What colour was the tailpipe? I think it needs tuning up properly before looking for other faults

Here's a snap I took last night- not great as it was getting dark but hopefully useful. It wasn't a nice biscuit colour as in the past, but not incredibly sooty either. The exhaust pipe is quite sooty though I've never cleaned it. The exhaust wasn't visible, no black smoke...

IMG_8156.jpg (508.62 KiB) Viewed 3710 times

With flash:

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