MOT failure - Welding

[rellarby]

I am looking for advice from other members who may have experienced the same or a similar problem.
A year ago I bought a MM convertible in excellent condition with a full years MOT. Today I took it for its MOT only to be told that it had failed on welding, the reason given is that the welds were not continuous on the "patch" repairs, these repairs were not noticiable when I bought the car, being well hidden by the underseal. The welding is in short runs and I am informed is excellent but illegal. The previous owner told me he had restored the car fourteen years before I bought it, although the MOT garage is sceptical that the welds are that old.
I am still recovering from the shock and embarrasment.
I have not had any welding done in the year I have owned the car, the only thing I have done is to fit seat belts front and rear.
The garage is advising that I need to have it rewelded, which in their words is "expenive". They do not do welding so there is nothing in it for them. Any advice is appreciated

[jonathon]

Stitch welding was at one time acceptable to MOT standards. The center is correct that all welding should be continuous. I cannot believe that to weld between what you already have would be prohibitive. Once the interior trim/carpet is removed you should be able to clean up and weld totally in a day, obviously depending on the extent of the original restoration.

[rayofleamington]

If the car has been covered in underseal then the welding time can be trippled (extra time for cleaning the underseal off, and then extra time to cope with the spitting mig welder as the traces of underseal come out from under the patches).
If the repairs are structurally sound, then you could consider cleaning off the yellow crayon from the previous MOT and taking it to somewhere else (e.g. the garage which did the last MOT)
The new regs state that repairs within a region up to 6" (or something like 6") around structural areas must be fully seam welded. Needless to say this was to stop cars having 'tack welded' patches that were completely worthless but would pass the previous MOT rules of 'no holes'.

I have used 2 to 3" of weld then a 1" gap before the next weld (when fixing modern cars that were not great to start with) and have not had a complaint about it - lets face it most cars are spotwelded with a 1/8" spot and 2" to 3" of gap so fully seamwelding is a complete overkill in most places.
Mainly it depends on whether your MOT place is prepared to use sense to interpret the rules or will stick rigidly to the most stringent definition.

[jonathon]

The rule is that any welding within 18" of a suspension point should be welded to MOT standard. This is not open to interpitation, unless you have a dishonest tester. Nothing less that this criteria should be tollerated, there again, by the look of some of the welding we see on a daily basis, it would be debatable if most have actually achieved a penetrative weld even when seam welded, rendering them as useless as a stitch weld or tack weld.
It was also at one time acceptable to braize structural panel work, this practice is now thankfully illegal. To clean off the yellow crayon and take the car somewhere else is defeating the object,if the job was structurally sound it wouldn't have failed the test and the car having failed the first MOT would be illegal to drive for another. If the second tester agreed with the first then you would be no further down the line to achieving a sound and safe car, plus you would be financially worse off. If the first station stated that they did not do welding, then they obviously have no reason to be unnecessarily harsh in your cars appraisal. By all means seek advice from proffesional welders, but at the end of the day its the tester who has the ultimate say. Just remember,unless you have the car booked in for repairs or a re test, it is now illegal for it to be driven. I would accepyt the testers verdict and shop around for a good welder who is conversant with todays MOT requirements.
I agree with Ray about the problems of welding in areas undersealed and that time needs to be factored in to clean up,however with a needle scaler and panel wipe you should'nt spend amassive amount of time here,as you are really only welding the spaces left and not re welding the complete structure.

[Alec]

Hello Jonathan,

brazing in itself is a good way of joining steel (and other metals) providing of course that the right type of joint and filler rod is chosen. (After all Jaguar brazed the front sections of the E Type.) I understand why it is not accepted but it is a sound construction given correct use, which is true of all types of joining tecniques. Just because something is welded does not necessarily give a sound repair and a brazed joint is not per se weak.

Alec

[jonathon]

Alec,

I'm not infering that brazing should not be part of the welders armoury, I agree and have said so in my post that it can be used on non stuctural repairs. I don't understand your comment on welding and sound repair, presumably you mean a poor weld or poor repair panel. Surley if a correct panel and quality welding are employed in an attempt to replicate the original structure then this would lead to a sound repair.
It is the case of this car in question that the welding had not been performed in a satisfactory manner and therefore the repair was unsound.

[chickenjohn]

The rule is that any welding within 18" of a suspension point should be welded to MOT standard. This is not open to interpitation, -snip.

Not being critical of your post, but I thought the rule was 12" or 30cm (a typical ruler length). or at least it seemed to be last year when my 4-door failled on structure.

Just seeking clarification here Jonothan, but have they changed the rules over the last year?? (wouldn't surprise me, EEC regs, nanny state, etc...)

[Alec]

Hello Jonathan,

I was trying to make the point that brazing can be used structurally, hence the reference to the E Type, the brazed sections I refered to are structural. I was not commenting on the specific repair of the original post but that welding is not a guarantee of a sound repair nor is a brazed repair necessarily unsound.
Stitch repairs are allowed at points where the original join is a spot welded one, it is patches etc that need to be continuously welded.
As an example if a repair section is flanged and the repair is made with a continuous weld along the lip of both panels, where the original was spot welded, is not a sound repair. Plug welding is better although there can be a problem in ensuring that there is a good weld rather than just filling the hole. Another option is to trim one flange width by 50% to 60% and stich weld along the resultant overlap. This is stronger than a continous weld along the extreme edge refered to earlier.

Alec

[lynda]

I got a free car last year that had failed the MOT on dangerous corrosion underneath - I have never seen so much yellow chalk. The second garage the former owner went to failed it on the sill, a section of the floor, and the inner wing. When I took the car to a Morris specialist the only section he replaced was the sill. He rubbed off the other chalk marks before going for the retest.... and it went through with no problems.

If a garage isn't experienced with classic cars they can make mistakes. I'd suggest getting a second opinion, just in case, if the place you went to is not one that regularly deals with classics.

[rellarby]

Thanks everyone for your very helpful comments, I can see that I have started several debates on welding v brazing, interpretation of the MOT regulations and competency of MOT Testing stations.
As I intend to keep the car for a long time (it is in very good nick), I am going to take it to classic car welder to ensure a legal long term repair. I believe the welding has not been picked up on previous MOT's because the car did not have seat belts fitted (I fitted them last year). I would otherwise be seeking redress from the previous owner and garage (both are over 100 miles away).
Can anyone recommend a good classic car welder in Sussex?

[chickenjohn]

-snip-
Can anyone recommend a good classic car welder in Sussex?

East Sussex Minors!!

Well, they're good for parts, and i've heard good things about their restoration work.

[jonathon]

Alec, I think we actually agree with each other on the brazing/ proper welding debate. The MOT station with whom I worked with were very tollerant of classic cars and understood that in some cases the letter of the law could be persuaded to adequately cover all safety issues. I had been told that there should be no holes/damage within 18" of a suspension point other than those intended by the manufacturer. If there was, then it should be subject to repair and continuous welding. I will qualify this tommorow for chickenjohn. I have not heard that a stitch weld is acceptable where spot welds are evident, but I agree totally with Alec about the correct welding, using plug welds and an edge weld on areas like chassis legs. I do feel that the MOT test doesn't go far enough with classic cars, mainly when concerning the cars structure. I am amazed how many Minors have the sill finishers and kick plates welded on to hide the abundance of rotted out sills and boxing plates, areas crucial to the strength of all minors especially convertables. However, how the centers can get around this dangerous practice, I don't know. I also feel that the MOT should be welcomed as a time when an independant apraisal of a car can offered. Its a usefull check irrespective of how carefull or involved an owner you maybe.

[aupickup]

i have seen there work and it is very good, not cheap but then you pays your money and take your choice.
and they can do for concourse work as well.
another place is john at mid sussex minors, i have had a lot of work done by them, very good and strong welds and reapir panels and quite a bit cheaper.

[doobry]

The MOT station with whom I worked with were very tollerant of classic cars and understood that in some cases the letter of the law could be persuaded to adequately cover all safety issues

doesn't really =

This is not open to interpitation, unless you have a dishonest tester

That's the problem when rules can be inforced rigidly or logically - there are different interpretations. The MOT guidelines do not include a full body diagram of every car ever made to specify which areas are structural and which are not, so in many cases it isn't 100% clear. We're all only human and so are MOT testers so you can't expect the same exactly the same thing from different people.
I've seen MOT testers miss a 10" hole in the floor adjacent to the seatbelt mounting point, and from other places I've seen MOT failures on completely good components, but that's life.
One place failed my Minor because the inertia belts didn't spring back all the way without assistance. He wasn't interested that the original static belts didn't retract at all, as it was his job to follow the rules. I just fitted static belts and took it back.
I've had other cars fail on rules that didn't even apply due to the cars age, so in the end I found it best to go to an MOT place that I liked (they are not all he same).
I'm guessing that Jonathon's main point is that when it comes to safety the MOT man shouldn't bend any rules - I certainly agree.

[jonathon]

I must say that the MOT station I used would never compromise on the safetyor structure of a car,modern or classic ,but in some non cruicial areas I feel that a measured interpritation of the guidelines was required/ justified to take into account the age of many classics.
The chief tester of this station has now resigned after 20 plus years of service, he was one of the most helpfull,honest, dilligent and conciencious testers I have met, and his leaving is a sad loss. The reason for him leaving, the pressure of responsibility v's a very pityfull salary.

[salty_monk]

Station I used says 12" or 30cm....

[ColinP]

Ok, there's a web site
http://www.motuk.co.uk/welcome.htm

which has a lot of the details on it.

Appendix C releates to repairs, and it's basically welding - continous for a repair, but may be intermittant when the original was spot welded.

However, there is room for interpretation - there has to be some discretion unless every car model is discussed at length.

Have a look, it also mentions things like:

"Missing bump stop is not a reason for rejection"

"indicators on vehicles first used before 1 Sept 1965" - white & red acceptable - for Cam

"semaphore indicators" - must have amber illumination - may flash

Lots of other intersting bits.

Colin

[chickenjohn]

Good link, Colin. Lots of useful info there- but a bit vague! No mention of 12" or 18".

Jonothan??

[jonathon]

Have chatted with the mot station today, I have to eat humble pie as the correct dimensionis indeed 12" or 30cm. They also said that no stitch welding was allowed even where spot welds already exist. I'll try the link posted and see what they have to say about it. It would seem that the rule adherance is as arbitary as the new electronic system they are forcing on testing stations.

[Cam]

Ok, there's a web site
http://www.motuk.co.uk/welcome.htm


"indicators on vehicles first used before 1 Sept 1965" - white & red acceptable - for Cam

Cheers Colin!

I have white indicators at the front (twin filament behind L488 lenses) and late clusters with orange at the back 'cause someone's pinched my 8-way relay!!!