Copper gasket

[murray33]

Hiya, re fitting my head this weekend but unsure which way up to put the gasket. One side is copper but there are no "TOP" markings or anything.
Many thanks

[aupickup]

hi

it may have front written on it, so that it can only go on one way.

[57traveller]

I've always fitted copper side up. Never had any problems.

[bmcecosse]

Just make sure the wee oil hole to allow oil up to the rocker gear lines up ok on the block !

[57traveller]

Or a stage further make sure ALL the holes line up!

[paulk]

specially the 4 big ones

Paulk

[bmcecosse]

Good point really - there are different gaskets for the 948/1098 engine - and the 1275 engine.

[grainger]

hi

(long time no see)

my traveller is back off the road after i did so much work on her last year, i fitted a copper gasket and after a few hundred miles i got an engine full of water !!!

i now hear you are supposed to anneal copper gaskets with a blowtorch before fitting, also when i put it together i used copper grease which i think is a bad idea

my copper gasket also had no 'front' marking on it, both sides seem to be made of copper and it seems symmetrical so does it matter which way it goes ?

is it possible to reuse my copper gasket after its been cleaned off ? or should i get another ?

are copper gaskets better than fibre ones ?

nice to be back
grainger

[Kevin]

i now hear you are supposed to anneal copper gaskets with a blowtorch before fitting,

Never done that or heard of having to do that with a head gasket.
Why do you use the copper grease its not for that type of application and I have always fitted the gaskets dry without problems, its just that with copper ones you should check the torque after 500 miles.

[rayofleamington]

Firstly - you only need to anneal copper when it is re-used (eg brake banjo washers - not head gaskets)
Secondly - you don't anneal copper by heating - you do it by rapid quenching after heating (eg. get it cherry red then chuck the copper washer in some water)
Thirdly - Grease on a headgasket makes it easier to strip down later but without the grease you probably wouldn't need to! When grease gets hot it expands and goes liquid - that is exactly what you don't want as it can leave the headgasket with a leak path....

with copper ones you should check the torque after 500 miles.

Yes - and even if it is not a coper one, it isn't a terrible idea to do that anyway.
A combination of grease and also not re-toquing could be the reason your headgasket failed, but it is worth to check the head and block flatness anyway. Also if you tried to bump start the engine (heavily) when it was full of water you can get some serious damage
A guy I knew couldn't get his diesel Passat to turn over after dropping off his glider at the airfield - thinking it was maybe the starter motor, he got a 'mate with a Landrover and a tow rope'....
The result was #2 piston sat a few mm lower than the others. After fitting a new gasket the car ran like a dog and didn't get him back to Germany before he had to abandon it (no european breakdown cover)

[grainger]

hi

thanks for the advice .... mmmm yes i did try hard to start it a couple of times when it probably had water in the cylinders but when it went it was going fine - i bumped it down a hill and a big cloud of white smoke (steam) came out i thought id just flooded it by repeatedly turning it over, but it was REALLY flooded

so i need to check my cylinders are all sitting level then ? - what can it damage ? push rods ? con rods ?

it said on the copper grease packet to use it on gaskets, like you say it made it easy to dismantle !!

so shall i use the same gasket or get another ?

anyway we live and learn

cheers
grainger

[bigginger]

The point of annealing copper, BTW, is that over time and repeated work cycles it becomes harder and more brittle. Annealing softens it - so V. important with brake washers if you want them to seal again.

[Willie]

I hope that you have taken onboard the remark made earlier that
if you use a copper gasket you MUST retighten the head nuts after
the first 500 miles. There is no wrong way to fit the head gasket
it should be absolutely identical whichever way up you look at it.

[bmcecosse]

Get a new gasket !! I just use a light smear of oil on the gasket to allow it to settle in. Put heavy washers under the head nuts and tighten to 42 ft.lbs in the correct order, and 'little by little'. Warm the engine up - then retighten, and of course re-set the valve clearances. When the head is off - check the pistons are all coming equally close to the top of the block. Forcing a water locked engine will break pistons/bend con rods/bend the crank. In effect the engine will be ruined. But - you may be lucky !!

[grainger]

thanks for the advice

i will get a new copper gasket

the pistons look in good nick, should they come right up flush with the block ? i'll check it with a metal rule .. that would show if ive damaged the crank i presume.

i got no water in the oil so i presume the piston rings are working well, and none in the top of the engine so i presume the new valve stem oil seals i fitted are working ?

when i was turning the engine over the water was coming up out of the radiator if that shows anything ?

cheers
grainger

[Willie]

Yes, it shows that the compression from the cylinders was able to
enter the water system via the damaged head gasket. I would
strongly advise that you change the engine oil.

[bmcecosse]

So it could just be the head gasket - but should have been obvious when you took the head off - or it could be a crack in the head - or worse, in the block. Lets hope it was just the gasket !