corrosion spots - need advice (not another corrosion post!)

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Hi all, been a while since I posted. Quick recap. I got my moggy a couple of years ago now, been driving it till April this year when I decided to carry out a driveway restoration. I have the bodywork looking good and engine, breaks, electrics etc work perfect.

The corrosion i've found has generally been very superficial, but a couple of places I need advice on. The question isn't do these need welding but is this corrosion dangerous/mot failure/structurally unsound etc. I think I know which parts which but to be honest lying on the drive looking up taking photos is a bit disorientating. bare with me....

Both MOTs with the moggy have passed without any advisories

Spot number one.... The inner sill, drivers side. I've found a couple of small holes around the size of a 5pence piece.....


Spot number two.... inner wheel arch, drivers side. Am I right in thinking this isn't part of the essential structure, and could be patched?


Spot number three.... the biggie.... just off the join between the cross member and the inner sill.


The cross member seems solid to me, am i right? a little peeling of the laminate, is that right?


Thanks in advance!

[ManyMinors]

Personally, I would say you have an immediate MOT failure there next time. You probably should have had an advisory last time but so often these cars are covered in underseal etc and the rust is not so easy to spot. MOT testers are only allowed to do SO much checking - and standards do vary.
If you cannot do your own welding repairs, you'll need to find somebody who can I'm afraid. The crossmember and surrounding undersills don't look very good As you suggest, that part of the inner wing/flitch panel can be repaired fairly easily if that is the only part affected.

I should perhaps add that if my own crossmember looked like that, I wouldn't be thinking it looked "solid". I think it looks pretty badly weakened. It is an important part of the car's structure.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Thanks for the reply ManyMinors.

As is, yes definate failure.
I could probably manage a non structural area with my welding skills, but wouldn't trust them for a more important area.

Ah disappointed you think they're so bad. I thought aside from the obvious gaping holes the rest, once cleaned up and underseal removed, seemed fairly strong when i was tapping (hitting) them.

Are the sills welded together or bolted? I wonder if I could tackle this myself.

Ah and the crossmember, I didn't think the majority of that was in such dire condition as you think.

still, very much appreciate your advice, thanks

[philthehill]

I have to agree with ManyMinors - the corrosion pictured is severe and should be rectified before submitting the car to another MOT or putting many more miles on the milometer.
Only the sill finisher is bolted to the body proper the rest is welded in place.
As regards the cross member from the pictures posted the cross member requires replacement.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

I have to agree with ManyMinors - the corrosion pictured is severe and should be rectified before submitting the car to another MOT or putting many more miles on the milometer.
Only the sill finisher is bolted to the body proper the rest is welded in place.
As regards the cross member from the pictures posted the cross member requires replacement.

ah thats disappointing. Im guessing we're talking close to £1000 to get that sorted?

Thinking about it, this can be done without touching any of the exterior bodywork can't it?

[philthehill]

You do need to look at the corrosion in the round.
I would get a couple of full surveys of the corrosion and have three quotations for the rectification work.
It may well cost in the region of £1000 to get the sills, wheel arch and cross member replaced but it will be money well spent.
I would advise that you do not patch but get the job done properly as in the long term the expense will be repaid in the joy of use and increase in its sale value.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

You do need to look at the corrosion in the round.
I would get a couple of full surveys of the corrosion and have three quotations for the rectification work.
It may well cost in the region of £1000 to get the sills, wheel arch and cross member replaced but it will be money well spent.
I would advise that you do not patch but get the job done properly as in the long term the expense will be repaid in the joy of use and increase in its sale value.

very true, time to get saving.

[RobThomas]

Not wanting to offend anyone but is the welding on that car not a little below par? Some of the joints aren't what I'd want to see on my own. Spot number one looks like a hit-n-miss weld along the seam where the rot has re-started and the pics near the jacking point don't LOOK to have been done with continuous welds.

Pictures can sometimes give an untrue impressions so I apologise if I'm leading anyone down the wrong path.

[Mark Wilson]

inner wheel arch, drivers side. Am I right in thinking this isn't part of the essential structure

With monocoque construction pretty much everything is essential structure. The rot in the flitch means that the inner arch won't be strong enough to resist the impact forces it would have transferred to it from the bumper iron in the event of a minor shunt. The bracket holding the brake flexi is fairly close to this area, too - and you wouldn't really want that hanging loose at the wrong time

[Chipper]

It appears to be probably one of the cheap replacement crossmembers on the market a few years ago (possibly still today?) of the type that delaminates. Good quality ones don't do this, so if you do decide to get it replaced, try to insist on a decent quality one which should last donkey's years if rust-protected.

The rest of the rust doesn't look too difficult to rectify, at least...

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Not wanting to offend anyone but is the welding on that car not a little below par? Some of the joints aren't what I'd want to see on my own. Spot number one looks like a hit-n-miss weld along the seam where the rot has re-started and the pics near the jacking point don't LOOK to have been done with continuous welds.

Pictures can sometimes give an untrue impressions so I apologise if I'm leading anyone down the wrong path.

Hi RobThomas, no offence taken here. I've tried my hand at welding but by no means a professional, but from dismantling the moggy and working on the bodywork, at some point someone's done a fairly amateur job all round (bodywork filling etc). I'll take more photos today, see what you make of them.

Mark Wilson - defiantly do not want any break related part breaking off.

It appears to be probably one of the cheap replacement crossmembers on the market a few years ago (possibly still today?) of the type that delaminates. Good quality ones don't do this, so if you do decide to get it replaced, try to insist on a decent quality one which should last donkey's years if rust-protected.

The rest of the rust doesn't look too difficult to rectify, at least...

This seems possible with the stand of the other work done on the car by the guy before me.

Do you think that the crossmember has say a couple of years left in it, if repaired at joins with the sill? Or is it a definate case of replace it?

Concerning photo number one, do you think this could be sorted without replacing the whole sill, with it still being safe?

I'm going to take the kick plates off later today, see whats under there. I'll take tissues.....

I don't think it's just me being blindly optimistic but the passenger side doesn't seem as bad. I'll take photos there too.

[palacebear]

Regarding the crossmember. IMHO it needs replacing. Repairs may prolong its life a little but, if the floors above are still sound, I'd do it sooner rather than later, before the rust spreads!
Regarding the inner sill. As others have commented its an immediate MOT fail especially if you have seatbelts fitted. Old-school tester may issue an advisory if older (pre-'64) car with no seatbelts fitted.

Piecemeal patch repairs will only get you out of trouble in the short term. I'd strongly recommend that you inspect the entire car thoroughly and dispassionately. Rust in a Minor is like an iceberg... only a small percentage visible on the surface

[philthehill]

I will be quite blunt and say that if you want to continue with the car you have got to bite the bullet on this and get the work done or if it is too much work or expense think about getting a car in better condition.
Whilst you may not have to get an MOT because of its age - if you were involved in an accident your insurance company may refuse to pay out because you have not kept the car in a roadworthy condition.
I personally would not want to drive the car in its current condition.

[RobThomas]

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Entirely possible to make a repair invisible without using bitumen sealant to cover it up. Also, the original method of holding the crossmember on wasn't the greatest design and was just asking for corrosion to start. This is an original crossmember, though.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Thank you all for the replies, definitely helping me sus out what i've got to do!

RobThomas - not sure if those photos make me optimistic or not. Looking at the quality making me want a total restoration

I've been working on the moggy this evening so took some photos under the kick plates. Tell me what you think, I wasn't as shocked as I thought I'd be.

I also had a look at the passenger side.

Driver side under kick plates...




Passenger side under kick plates...





Passenger side sills and crossmember....





again, thanks for the feedback!

[RobThomas]

Sorry if this isn't what you hoped to hear...I wouldn't be driving it.

The welds (?) in the first pic suggest that they've been put on just for show rather than as a serious attempt to make the car safe. The filler protruding out of the seams suggests the same thing. In an impact you'll not be safe.

It is possible, but not ideal, to cut the lower inch from the crossmember and replace it in-situ. In your case I'd say that the photos would suggest that you need the entire crossmember, 2 sets of sills, new metal welded into the floorpan to hold the sills onto and maybe the spring hangers. £1000 might not be far from the truth.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Sorry if this isn't what you hoped to hear...I wouldn't be driving it.

Don't worry about it. I've resigned myself to having to get it sorted - it was just one of those unexpected expenses thats annoying.

I did think they were pretty clean inside though.

And I'm surprised nothings been picked up on the condition before. Two MOTs with not even an advisory about corrosion, been driving it regularly for a couple of years, and even bought it and drove it down from Scotland to the midlands.

So am I right in thinking that everyones opinion on this is that I'd need -

2 x outer sill
2 x inner sill
full crossmember

Then floor pan or sheet material

thanks again!

[myoldjalopy]

Although from the above comments, you now have a good idea of what needs doing, I would suggest someone in the know examines your car to determine exactly what repairs are required.
Yes, it is disappointing to discover so much rot in a car, but, assuming the rest of the car is in good condition, you would be doing both yourself and the car a favour by having the work done properly. If you have the skills, so much the better, as it will save a lot of money.
When Minors were plentiful, I scrapped one that was similar to yours after it failed an MOT. Now is the time they really should be saved, if at all possible.

[Stourbridge_moggy]

Although from the above comments, you now have a good idea of what needs doing, I would suggest someone in the know examines your car to determine exactly what repairs are required.
Yes, it is disappointing to discover so much rot in a car, but, assuming the rest of the car is in good condition, you would be doing both yourself and the car a favour by having the work done properly. If you have the skills, so much the better, as it will save a lot of money.
When Minors were plentiful, I scrapped one that was similar to yours after it failed an MOT. Now is the time they really should be saved, if at all possible.

Absolutely, not giving up on this one just yet.

So now I'm in the position to go get these bits sorted. I wonder if anyone could tell me if my thinking is correct.... I've uploaded a drawing of what parts I think I need to purchase and how they fit together. I've not included floor panels that may need to be replaced also.

If anyone knows of any diagrams that lays them out that would be great. I've found profile diagrams but not a birdseye look.

thanks again!

[Trickydicky]

Best company for exploded views is Moss Europe. Browse the web site for the chassis diagram and it gives you a exploded view of the sill assembly.