Afternoon all. Well, having sold my beloved Traveller - Monty - in February to get a 1932 Morris Minor, I've just bought a smashing 1961 factory convertible. I'm a tiny bit confused about the speedo... I understand that it's not the original one. It has four warning lights - one for the indicators. It's had the export type flasher system installed in addition to the trafficators, so it has the self cancelling column switch fitted, as well as a dash mounted 'trafficator' switch (white with a red light in the middle). The speedo fitted is a 4401/15. According to what I can make out from Ray's 'bible' it's supposed to be a 4466/00 with three lights? Having said that I think I might be getting confused and perhaps the car would have originally had the column switch (non self cancelling) with the horn push on the end - in which case it would have had the four light speedo and used the 'IND' light for the trafficators. When the flashers were subsequently fitted, the later self cancelling switch with the green light on the end was fitted, together with the white switch for the trafficators I assume? The speedo does seem to read rather optimistically so I'm not sure if the ratio is correct for the diff (I don't know what the diff is though).
Does all this rambling make any sense to anyone - and can you shed any more light for me please? I'm toying with the idea of wiring the trafficators in parallel with the flashers - which would then make the trafficators self cancelling of course. Any thoughts gratefully received!
61 could well have been a transition . The speedo is correct for 56-59 /60 ash and would have had the horn push you describe. later ones had same horn push but a light in the body of the indicator assembly and slightly larger white front sidelights to accommodate combined side light and indicator. This is why the speedo reverted to three lights as the 'ind' light was no longer required. Early large rear and front clusters had the same speedo before a change to the black faced one.
The 'ind' light on the speedo was only used on cars exported to the USA. My '56 car has the same set-up, although it has semaphores controlled by a Lucas switch with integral warning lamp mounted beneath the dash. I believe all gold-speedo cars had the 'ind' warning light, even UK cars which left the factory with semaphores UNTIL the 'American style' flashers (red rear, white front) were introduced around October 1961... if that makes sense!
I've tried in the past to trace the history of the 'ind' lamp. Its a bit confusing as the info in Ray's bible, and the info in my old Paul Skilleter book don't exactly correspond.
firedrake1942 wrote:I think the semaphores were also indicated through this light prior to the inclusion on the horn push body. Mine were and it is a June 1957
I think firedrake is probably right. Seem to recall mention, in a 1956/7 Autocar road-test of a UK spec MM1000, of the light being virtually invisible in daylight.
Its weird but almost every car I've had has been on the changeover between models! I can't fathom out the speedo numbers though but it seems like some numbers aren't listed in the 'Original Minor' book...
By 1961 the horn push on the end of the stalk had long gone. It was replaced during 1959 by the later switch with the green warning light at the end along with self cancelling and the horn push at the centre of the steering wheel.
I'm not sure exactly which cars had the indicator warning light within the speedo but the only Minor I have ever owned with this was a 4door Series11 model. It certainly would not have been an original fitment as late as 1961.
I guess that at some stage a previous owner decided to sensibly add flashing indicators and work them through the original column stalk
but retain the trafficators, operating them through a separate retro trafficator switch. Whether you choose to continue with this arrangement or wire both systems together using just one switch but two flasher units is up to you. The only downside of this is that the vulnerable trafficators will pop out every time you indicate - something I prefer not to happen on my own car.
Hi,
Attach some pictures of the speedo / steering column / indicator stalk (?) area, then we can see what you see and that should make things easier to fathom.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels, now being sprayed by me, slowly......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
1952 Morris Minor MM highlight with sidevalve engine still fitted, wants work, so joins the queue for now......
These are the indicators and stalks from 1956-60. Mine originally had no bulb on the horn push assembly and so relied on the speedo light 'ind' to show when the trafficators worked. In later models gold faced still, but with no 'ind light on the speedo there was a bulb in the body of the horn push / indicator stalk.
The 1957 shown in sage green is identical to mine with both the ind light on the speedo and on the indicator / horn push assembly
Thats interesting - has that had a later heater fitted because mine doesn't look like that. Mine is the older type with the rheostat knob and no flap for screen / feet. Yes, I think you're right about the indicator switch. I thought the trafficators might be a bit vulnerable - especially because they're low down on the convertible. I've just upgraded to the LED flashing trafficator 'bulbs' on my 1932 minor - which is what I thought of doing on this one if I was going to wire them in parallel with the flashers.
I'll check the speedo against my sat nav and then see if it is a long way out and therefore possibly the wrong number. I'm very pleased with Millie - drove all the way back from south west Wales to Leicestershire on Saturday and never missed a beat. Worked out to at least 50mpg too believe it or not! And that was a steady run on the A40/M4/Fosse Way. My son was with me and said we were doing a steady 55 to 60 mph, with a fair bit more when I did a bit of zooming! Very impressed with the really sweet 948 engine - noticeably smoother than the 1098. Got a bit of an issue with a slightly bouncy rear O/S wheel, and the Nankang tyres aren't anywhere near as good as the Toyo's I had on Monty in the wet, even though they have plenty of tread. I've just ordered four Bridgestones....There's one or two twiddly bits I shall do but it's in really good condition and has been extremely well mollycoddled! Dead chuffed I am - and whats more SWMBO didn't shout at me!!
My 57 is at least 5mph out compared to the satnav. I do not really care as I am careful with speeds. I agree the 948 is a sweet engine I went to Beaulieu a couple of weeks ago and it did 60/65 with no issues, even got me an indicated 72 when overtaking.
I have the flashing trafficator festoon bulbs and they cause some raised eyebrows but people do tend to see the flash whereas they would not see the trafficator without it,
I have Bridgestones on mine and they are great. Not a problem at all loaded or otherwise. As to the stock library photo, yes the heater is from a post 63 car and to my mind looks wrong.I frequently have to switch my black round heater off in winter as it is too efficient. I reckon people who whinge about the round Smith's heater don't realise that portion 1 on the switch is full on and turn it all the way round - only getting a trickle of heat
However, if Mr Biggles car is a 1961, it would not have had the early type indicator stalk pictured above, as that was dropped early in 1959 at around chassis number 705622.
As he suggested in his first post, it is the speedometer which has been changed to that from an earlier model, not the indicator stalk changed to that from a later one .
His car is not a "transition" car. The specification had been established two years earlier.
So even though it had the trafficators they would have operated via the white switch on the dash and there wouldn't have been a column switch at all until the later flashers were fitted in addition? Anyone know which speedo code it would have had then? Im wondering if the 'Original Minor' book may have a misprint and is meant to say 4406/00 rather than 4466/00? I can't find any reference to the latter number when search the web for info on Smith's speedos.
What I think ManyMinors said is that:
a. Your column switch is original - it would have operated the trafficators, as your car didn't have indicators originally. The previous style of column switch (mentioned by Firedrake) was superseded prior to your car being made.
b. Your current trafficator switch has been added - this is the style used in older cars, i.e. pre-Minor 1000.
c. Your speedometer is not original.
Trafficators were operated by various designs of stalk switch on the steering column until their use was discontinued. From March 1959 at chassis number 705622 new type self-cancelling switch with the warning light built into its end, and gold faced speedo with only 3 warning lights (ign. Oil. Beam) was introduced. If your car has after-market flashing indicators as well as trafficators it is possible that the white switch was part of the after-market fit. Conversion kits including the white switch were freely available in the 1960s and 70s. This would suggest that your speedo is from an earlier car. SN4401/15 discontinued at chassis no.579227. 1961 car would have chassis number in the 800000 or 900000 range. You could be right about a misprint in Ray's book. I cant find any reference to 4466/00 either
Thats brilliant! Thanks chaps - that fits much better with what I was thinking might have been correct - but the column switch with the green light (because it is self cancelling) made me think that wouldn't have been fitted with trafficators, because I didn't think they were ever self cancelling. So useful to be able to bounce things around so easily as this on a brilliant club forum!
Thanks for all the research! I think a 4477 speedo is the same as a 4406 from what I've seen - and there seems to be a few of those around so I might get one....
Ant thoughts on the trafficators self cancelling with the column switch?
I think a 4477/00 speedo will work. It only has 3 warning lights. A 4477/10 looks like its for a 5.3 diff (e.g. Minor series 2). Should have 4 warning lights and will likely read wrong.
There are threads on the forum concerning running trafficators and flashers off the stalk switch, if thats what you propose doing. I've never done it, so I can't comment on how easy it is to do. My understanding is that you will need a flasher unit for each side of the car, wired between the switch outputs (left and right) and the point where the wiring divides between front and rear. You can either keep the trafficators working or disconnect them at the switch outputs.
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