stuck clutch

[MikeNash]

What ho, chums!
I'm a bit desperate for your advice before I pull my engine out again. After replacing the clutch plate (got oil on it a while ago) I had to leave my Trav alone for some months due to the usual interference you get from family, friends and village affairs. Now I find that I cannot get the clutch to disengage. The pedal is extremely "heavy" in operation and I wonder if anyone has some advice on what to do. With the rear wheels raised off the ground I can run the engine and get bottom gear engaged with growling gears and the second and third without too much trouble but I think on the latter two it's just the synchromesh doing its work.
A friend who had the same trouble on his 1960s Viva got it to separate after a few heat cycles; will it work on a 1098 Trav?
Yours in desperation, MikeN.

[panky]

That's the gentle way What I've found that works is to run the engine up until it's nice and hot the wedge the clutch pedal down with a piece of timber and leave it over night. If it hasn't freed off when you come back to it warm it up again with the pedal still wedged down. Some times it takes a while but it usually moves it.
The other, less gentle way is to make sure you have plenty of room in front of you and attempt to start the car while in gear Much fun bouncing down the road and when the car is speeding off stamp on the brakes, accelerate then stamp on the brakes again - be prepared to switch off in a hurry though. Like I said less gentle and takes plenty of room

[The vast minority]

.....

[bmcecosse]

Try the heat cycles first Mike. But I don't get the pedal being 'heavy' - it should really just feel normal. I would hve aq look at the linkages while someone else pumps the pedal - is everything moving as it should?

[philthehill]

Mike
You have PM.
Phil

[MikeNash]

Thanks for advice, friends.

I'll try the "wedge it down and heat cycle" method. But I've never had this problem before on any engine even if left for months unused, so it's a bit of shock when you think you've assembled it with great care. (It was put together some months ago but, alas, other things conspired to get it the way.)
But first I'll check the linkage. As Roy says I'm unsure why it should feel heavy. But after months of non-use and almost daily use of a Peugeot 5008 where everything's powered and all "feel" is artificial, I wonder if I'm just miss-judging my Trav's feel.

So off out into the garage! Regards, MikeN.

[MikeNash]

Well, I removed the flooring over the gearbox to watch the clutch linkage move when I depress the clutch pedal and all seems OK there. And as the Trav's in the garage and the MOT and tax have run out taking out on the road's not on - esp as my road is the A343!
Thinking about it, it seems to me that if I have the clutch pedal fully depressed then all spring pressure is off the clutch friction plate and only "stiction" is holding it to the flywheel. So I think the trick is to have it like this and apply maximum torque to it in that condition. So with the back axle up on stands I started the engine, engaged bottom gear and the went up to third (top seems difficult to get) and revved it to get 30 mph on the speedo. This I could hold steadily by pulling out the choke. Then the clutch was depressed and the brakes firmly applied.
I've done this a few times but the clutch hasn't disengaged. I'll give it a go a few more times tomorrow but without other ideas I'm stuck. Any thought? Thanks in advance, MikeN.

[panky]

Try the pedal wedging when it's hot, it usually works. One guy I know did it for three days, warming then leaving it until the next day, warming/leaving...... it eventually went.

[bmcecosse]

Have you looked inside the bellhousing to see what's going on with the release bearing ? A good 'heat sinking' usually release it eventually.

[MikeNash]

Right then! Off to the "Panky Solution"!
Re peering inside Roy, you've just reminded me I've got 14mm camera on a fibre optic wire to give it a go. Not sure what I might see but anything odd is what it's got to be.
Regards, MikeN.

[MikeNash]

Well folks, I tried the cures above but none have worked so I've got the engine and gearbox out again on the bench. The clutch plate wasn't stuck on either the flywheel or driven plate and it also slid to and fro on the g'box input shaft splines easily and smoothly. I'm at a loss, so would you be kind enough to inspect the photos below and tell of your suspicions?
Here's a view of the clutch lever with the slack taken up and carbon thrust bearing in contact it's mating face on the clutch (called the release lever plate?)[frame][/frame]
As it has to be pulled to the left by the clutch release mechanism I'd expect it's postion with the slack taken up to be either perpendicular to the bell housing, or more likely, leaning slightly to the right. What's yours like?

Here's the view of the lever inside the bell housing.[frame][/frame]
There's no slack in the lever pivot bearing and the carbon thrust bearing shows no wear when compared with a new one. Does it look alright to you?
Now the photo below concerns me. The wear on the face that the carbon thrust bearing engages with is scored (but it looks worse than it is). But is it thinner than it ought to be? For it seems to me that wear here on this component is the only thing that can account for the clutch lever position. (The line drawings in the BMC manual don't help here.)
[frame][/frame]

Yours expectantly, MikeN.

[philthehill]

Mike
I note that the gearbox is not a Minor one - what is it?
It has the holes for attaching a slave cylinder so possibly A40/Midget!!!.
Has the front cover of the gearbox been replaced with a incorrect one as the pivot points can be different.
The carbon thrust appears to be a 948cc one as it has holes in the ends of the stub for the location clips - I am not aware that the 1098cc has them.
The thrust pad on the clutch pressure plate appears to be as it should be.
Phil

[RobThomas]

You've got a 948 carbon bearing? 1098 has carbon sticking further forwards. 1275 Midget one even more.

It looks very much like a non-948 front cover on the gearbox since there is no nut/stud directly opposite the pivot point.

[RobThomas]

Found it...[frame][/frame]

[philthehill]

Mike
Re gearbox front cover:-

948cc................Pt No: 2A3087 (number may be on casting)
1098cc..............Pt No: 22G118 (number is on casting)
1275cc..............Pt No: 22G118X (number may be on casting)

Phil

[MikeNash]

Thank you for such rapid replies. My response is slower 'cos I've the grandchildren for the night. (They brought "Box Trolls" -really weird!)
The only serial number I can find is 22A478 in raised letters above VAF9A. See here[frame][/frame]
General views of the box are these[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]
The carbon thrust bearing is this sort[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]
which looks to me to be the 1098 type.
Your comments are eagerly awaited, MikeN.

[philthehill]

Mike
The part number is cast into the front gearbox cover.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Minor- ... SwM4xXaWkC
Your gearbox front cover appears to be different to the correct 1098cc one in the link above.
Phil

[MikeNash]

Ah yes, Phil; this is the front cover and it bears the mark "22G118"[frame][/frame]
The carbon thrust bearing has the mark F(?)O 425.
It seems to me that I've a 1098 gearbox and the right thrust bearing. However, with the excess clearance between the bearing and its mating surface due you think I should fit the 1275 carbon thrust race? And why do you think I've got this excess clearance?
Regards, MikeN.

[bmcecosse]

I've forgotten now - did it work before, and now suddenly doesn't work? I was going to say that the carbon thrust looked quite worn - but maybe its not when seen in these later pictures. A more offset/thicker carbon thrust will help - but is the lever clear to move far enough to move the carbon thrust sufficiently ?

[MikeNash]

Ah! you've got it Roy!
A closer inspection of the clutch lever reveals a witness mark. See here[frame][/frame]
And when installed in the bell housing this mark coincides with the rear edge of the bell housing opening when the lever is pulled rearward, meaning altogether that the lever cannot move enough to disengage the clutch. But why?

The history of this g'box is that it's an exchange 'box from John Evans (Marine & Classic Car Transmissions, Hayling Island)bought in 2004 and its run well over a big mileage. But its always had to have the clutch adjusted up a lot, i.e. the lever's been rearward - but no trouble till now. I suppose all exchange 'boxes are a mixture of parts; are some 'boxes fractionally longer than others? (Above, Phil suggests it might have A40 or Midget origins.) The cure to the problem seems to be to use the 1275 carbon thrust bearing that Rob illustrates above which again suggests the 'box is not fully of 1098 pedigree.

(Funnily enough, an increase in length of the 'box would explain why the the fan is so close to the radiator! I have to bend the blades slightly to give any clearance.)
Regards, MikeN.