This Europe referendum malarkey

[SteveClem]

When I was working in Athens,about 20 years ago,my Greek colleagues told me about their tobacco industry. Apparently the tobacco quality was so poor that even the locals couldn't smoke it. However,EU subsidies through the CAP meant that it was more profitable to produce unsmokable tobacco,which was thrown into the boiler of the local power station, than it was to diversify and grow useful crops.
That's what the Greeks told me. I've never checked it up. If it's right no wonder their economy is a disaster.
French agriculture seems a bit similar,if not quite as mad.

[SteveClem]

Everyone got registered to vote? Funny how the website crashed at the last minute...

[simmitc]

Funny how so many people wanted to wait until the last minute when most would have had months to complete the registration.

[dp]

The euro parliament is an elected body but not on the same Basis as in UK "local" elections. Parties nominate candidates and the number that become eligibal from this list is dependant on the size of their %Age vote. This is widespread practice on the continent in Country elections.

IF UK were to have a similar System then Mr Lafage's UKIP would indeed have been represented as befits his vote share and indeed why not? The AfD in Germany - with similat views to UKIP incl withdrawal from EU - had 14% on average in the state elections ( similar to British counties) and now scares the excrement out of the established parties for when the national elections take place next year.

And wrong, Junker was elected, initially as head candidate of the Luxembourg EVP and then, after other candidates dropped out of the running, he won the head to head against Martin Schulz.

Do not misunderstand me - if Britain wishes to withdraw then so be it - but please do so for the right and informed reasoning and not as a result of american style Marketing where those with the most Money investing in the campaign can put their views across. The title of this thread is very apt as "Referendum malarchy". If Britain had a more democratic modern Democracy, you may have been spared this malarchy.

The UK voting system has it's problems certainly but it's somewhat more accountable than the EU. It gave us this referendum after all

Most MEPs do not want to move back and forth to Strasbourg every month. Most of the EU population are probably not mad about money being wasted on this travelling circus. There was a petition with over a million signatures to stop the madness but it was ignored. So, why does it continue? Because the parliament has no power. It cannot propose new legislation, only vote on ideas thrown up by the unelected commission.

Clearly then, the EU structure at best fails on basic things like getting its own house in order (accounts signoff ever??) or more worryingly has its own vested interests ahead of the people and even MEPs.

Your comment from earlier,

Britain is too small and insignificant to be great on its own

is fascinating, It comes across as a veiled threat of the type that abuser in an abusive relationship uses to keep the co-dependent off balance. We remain the 5th largest world economy despite the financial drain of the EU. Our trade with the EU is diminishing, with the rest of the world increasing.

And your comment "

Incidentally, if you are able to check the two countries Norway and Switzerland who are not in the EU, in order to trade they are obliged to adapt over 80% of their rules in order to do so. Thus at the end of the day, as far as a trade Agreement is concerned, there would be no difference. But you know this already."

Sure, if I trade with the EU I am more than happy to trade according to EU rules. Switzerland and Norway do not trade with the rest of the world according to EU rules. though. Similarly, the UK would be free to negotiate its own trade agreements with the rest of the world on its own terms. It could also do so quicker than the EU as it wouldn't have to take into account the conflicting interests of French farmers, Spanish fishermen or Italian olive producers. How long has it taken the EU to have a trade agreement with the US? I'm being cruel labouring the point but the EU still hasn't got an agreement.

[john newton]

i read that e.e.c. was formed to trade coal and steel. we no longer have coal and steel ora fishing industry and a heavily decimated heavy ind also car plants ,they had their troubles demise organised by the likes of red robbo who stood and watched B.L.go down the swanney it all has the stench of e.u. around it should brexit occur then it would be nice to think about these industries coming back. re john,

[POMMReg]

i read that e.e.c. was formed to trade coal and steel. we no longer have coal and steel ora fishing industry and a heavily decimated heavy ind also car plants ,they had their troubles demise organised by the likes of red robbo who stood and watched B.L.go down the swanney it all has the stench of e.u. around it should brexit occur then it would be nice to think about these industries coming back. re john,

Tend to disagree with laying the blame on the likes of "Red Robbo", think you'll find he tried to gain better pay & conditions for his members, not decimate the industry, years of underinvestment didn't help.

Makes no difference to MPs, still have their pensions,directorships & seat in the Lord's regardless of the financial mayhem they leave the country!

[simmitc]

All, (this is not aimed at any particular post) we have Ts&Cs that say we do not do politics on the forum. I think that by and large this has been a useful debate with some interesting points. As we get closer to the referendum, can we please ensure that comments relate only to the referendum and not to any other political points. Some light-hearted ones might be good Thanks.

[SteveClem]

I agree. Neither result would be the end of the world. We'd still have our old cars.

[les]

Better delete this thread then, as the very nature of debating the referendum is political!

[Blaketon]

I am surprised it has lasted this long. Well, we'll know one way or the other a week from now. I think coming out could present Britain with an opportunity to pull together and (After a time, when it's available again) buy British but I'm not convinced the public at large would ever grasp the opportunity (Nor am I confident that we have the right kinds of people in charge; which ever party they represent). Sadly I think things will have to get a whole lot worse, before they ever get better.

[Nickol]

Uk will not come out of the EU even if the Referendum makes a majority vote to Brexit. Unlike most of the EU member states , UK does not have a constitution and as such the government is not obliged to accept the vote. The only way that the relevant clause can be invoked is through parliament. Presently , as it is reported, most of the labour MPs and more than half of the conservative ones are against a brexit - so too the scottish nationalists. If Britain had a voting System similar to most EU member states then the UKIP who got (from Memory now) some 15% of the total vote but only one MP, would have had many more and thus the parliamentary vote would be much greater for the brexit. So, a "no" vote will have interesting repercussions - remember the UK System is not a plebicite Democracy but a parliamentary one.

Added to that, as reported in the more serious newspaper articles here, the practicalities mean that an actual brexit would take from 5 to 10 years to complete. This would have Advantages for both sides as Money markets, and economics generally do not like sudden changes and stability is more important than national egoism.

So, all in all, nothing to get excited about.

[les]

You sound quite excited !! Guess those motors need to be sold!

[SteveClem]

Read an interesting quote today....'better to be the first rat leaving a sinking ship '
I might remember that,for future reference.

[dp]

Uk will not come out of the EU even if the Referendum makes a majority vote to Brexit. Unlike most of the EU member states , UK does not have a constitution and as such the government is not obliged to accept the vote. The only way that the relevant clause can be invoked is through parliament. Presently , as it is reported, most of the labour MPs and more than half of the conservative ones are against a brexit - so too the scottish nationalists. If Britain had a voting System similar to most EU member states then the UKIP who got (from Memory now) some 15% of the total vote but only one MP, would have had many more and thus the parliamentary vote would be much greater for the brexit. So, a "no" vote will have interesting repercussions - remember the UK System is not a plebicite Democracy but a parliamentary one.

Added to that, as reported in the more serious newspaper articles here, the practicalities mean that an actual brexit would take from 5 to 10 years to complete. This would have Advantages for both sides as Money markets, and economics generally do not like sudden changes and stability is more important than national egoism.

So, all in all, nothing to get excited about.

You're right the EU vote has been set up to be non-legally binding. This appears to be something assigned on a case by case basis. For example when we had a referendum on the AVM voting system a few years ago the result was legally binding - that detail was blended into the mix upon creation. Interesting that it wasn't blended into the Brexit vote. On the other hand, it would be unwise of the politicians in parliament to ignore the will of the people. Whether they do I suspect would depend on how close the vote is.

[sid]

Read an interesting quote today....'better to be the first rat leaving a sinking ship '
I might remember that,for future reference.

love that quote!

let's worry about the legalities afterwords..first off all we need to get the vote..OUT!

[Nickol]

The ship is not sinking - it is full of misguided mutineers.

[amgrave]

It might not be from your point of view but a lot of people across the EU are thinking the same it's just not being reported and we can guess why.

[busguy]

The ship is not sinking - it is full of misguided mutineers.

The 'bad ship EU', is too costly to run, has a duff guidance system, and is full of ineffective, but expensive to maintain bureaucrats, all trying to be the captain, but unaccountable for anything!

No wonder there's a mutiny! We need to get out first, otherwise the Dutch and one or two more will beat us to it!

[Blaketon]

The EU is certainly not the EEC of old and if we accept (For now) that the idea of the EEC was a good one, like most things, human beings seem to be good at making a mess of of them. The EEC has grown into a monster and it needs to be brought down to size and I suspect this may well signal the start of that process.

[Nickol]

O dear o dear -

whilst we are all up to a Point victims of propoganda - there is enough qualified Information available on the net which is not biased in any direction. Certainly sweeping Statement of excessive burocracy, poor managment etc etc make sweet reading to those who are already convinced but with 28 member states it would be unrealistic to imagine anything substantially different. anyway "jaw-jaw" as Mr churchill put it, is infinently better than "war-war".
Equally if the EU were not there then another scapegoat would Need to be found to Focus on.

Perhaps not in this Forum, but by the tone of some remarks I am waiting to read a Suggestion of when it is time to publically burn all the books not written in the english language.

i rather akin the debate to divorce proceedings - each side , if not exactly inventing, then exaggerating its sometimes quite brutal arguments to the Detriment of the other and when all is said and done and the divorce really does happen - then we will lose out.
and by "we" i mean we europeans.

On the other Hand,
Möltke, Nov 1918 - Besser ein Ende mit unvoraussehbarem Terror als Terror ohne Ende.