Dead clutch and/or gearbox?

[Peatree]

Hi folks,

New member here - have a 1961 4-door saloon which I've recently purchased, wonder if I can get your thoughts on a clutch issue please?

I *thought* my pedal was stiff and needed freeing up as it felt like I needed both feet to depress it, but on closer inspection found this:



As you can see, its been adjusted to within an inch of its life, and even appears to have an extra bolt to push the lever arm (technical name?!) even further than it probably should. The gasket is clearly dead. On loosening everything up, the pedal and entire mechanism moves freely as you'd want it to. I set it up to have a nice full pedal movement with absolutely no heaviness, but it was impossible to use - the clutch did not seem to disengage and everything crunched horrendously.

So I returned it all to where it was as shown in the pic, and it's back to requiring massive pressure and basically it seems like I'm having to push the clutch beyond it's natural end point just to disengage it enough to change gear, which it will, and it will drive sort-of acceptably, but there is barely half an inch of travel from the furthest most depressed point and the clutch being fully engaged again. The best way I can describe it is, it's like the opposite of a worn slipping clutch at the end of its travel! I hope that makes some sense....

Also, while poking around down there, this fell out of the gasket...



The experienced amongst you may now be thinking "well duh, obviously....", but frankly I have no idea if this is the problem or a sign of something really serious...I like to poke around and learn a little while I'm at it and very happy to be schooled if you can help! My research suggests this is part number 30 from the following pic....



...whatever it is, the thread is knackered.

Here's another couple of pics if it helps:







Any suggestions would be very much appreciated!

While I'm at it, odes the ribbing that you can see in the pics suggest I actually have a 1100 rather than 950 gearbox?

Thanks very much!

[philthehill]

Remove the rubber plug on the other side of the gearbox bell housing and see what type of clutch is fitted.
Also what rear engine plate is fitted - thick or the thin which has a rolled edge
If a 948cc type it is as in your parts illustration. The 1098cc clutch is much bigger and much deeper. Look in the manual for a comparison.
I suspect that the rear engine plate / flywheel / clutch have not been upgraded to a 1098cc assy and that is why you have the excess travel.
The extra spacer is a bicycle outer wheel bearing race. The mystery object does not appear to have come from a Minor and may have been picked up as road junk. Item No: 30 is out side the gearbox bell housing and is a taper pin and does not have a thread.
If fitted with a 948cc clutch assy - to put things right whilst retaining the 1098cc gearbox you will need to fit a 1098cc rear engine plate, a 1098cc flywheel, a 1098cc pressure plate and 1098cc driven plate. You may need to replace the release bearing as well but that depends upon how much wear has taken place.
Unfortunately to replace the clutch means taking the engine and/or the gearbox out for access.
Phil

[RobThomas]

A clue would be to look at the engine back plate between the gearbox and the main engine casting. The big (tea tray size) plate is either a flat, cast item or a pressed steel one that is folded rearwards at the edges.

http://mmoc.org.uk/mbimage.php?src=1356307026_11410

[crackers]

Check out the linkages for wear. If they're very sloppy (like mine are), you'll wind up in this situation with most of the pedal movement taking up the slop before it gets to do anything with the clutch.

[bmcecosse]

As above - but if you keep using it like that you are going to very quickly ruin the gearbox. The backplate may be wrong, and also the carbon thrust wrong type or just worn out - either way -it needs the engine out (much easier than gearbox out...) so you can investigate what's going on. Where's the return spring gone ? Is it just removed for the pictures?

[john newton]

the little piece of debri looks to be from memory, part of the clutch pressure plate. i.e. adjuster from one of the three fingers that depress when in contact with release bearing, hope i am wrong. re john

[bmcecosse]

Or part of a jubilee hose clip

[amgrave]

Now you mention it, it does look like a screw from a jubilee clip. What's that doing in there

[Peatree]

Thanks very much for all the detailed replies. Everything I've found so far points towards the 1098 gearbox being on the 948 engine. Have a look at these pics and see if you agree? Engine number is 9MUH-480759, and the gearbox looks like a later ribbed-type to me...















And inside the inspection cover...













...and a loose bolt here....



I suppose the question is now, what is the best course of action. If it requires all those parts to match up a 948 engine to a 1098 gearbox, and if the engine is coming out anyway, perhaps it makes sense just to source a 1098 to go in instead?!?!

Thanks again for your help.

[philthehill]

Many thanks for taking the time to take and post the photos.
The photos confirm that the rear engine plate is a 948cc one as is the clutch.
The clutch release bearing is shot and needs to be replaced.
You can see the gap between the clutch release bearing and the pressure plate thrust pad which has to be taken up before the clutch starts to release - hence the long pedal travel and increased pedal pressure.
As regards a solution - The easiest thing may be to source a good 1098cc engine (with flywheel and clutch assy) to drop straight in.
If you do change the engine - unless the clutch pressure plate is shot I would retain it (because the older pressure plates are better than the new ones) but replace the centre/driven plate and clutch release bearing.
Replace that frayed engine/gearbox steady cable.
Phil

[Peatree]

Thank you Phil, that's very helpful indeed. It's all starting to make sense now.

So as I understand it, if i were to keep the 948 for the time being, I'd need as a minimum:

* 1098 flywheel (with 1098 rather than 948 ring gear?)
* 1098 back plate
* 1098 clutch (might as well just get a whole new clutch kit?!? Any issue with the Borg and Beck kits?)

All in, with other bits and piece i.e. steady cable, clutch relay parts, I'm in for about £200 via bull motif and eBay.

Perhaps this is a better route for a start with a view to a 1098 motor later once I can source and overhaul a decent one?

That being the case, is there anything else gearbox-wise you'd recommend I did while the engine was out and I had access?

[philthehill]

The rear engine plate and flywheel which are the main parts you require are currently available on 'e' bay S/H links to examples provided.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR- ... SwnFZXWaDj
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1098cc-engine ... SwT~9Wi9W1
What ever rear engine plate you purchase make sure that it comes with the oil pump cover as the 948cc oil pump cover is not detachable from the 948cc rear engine plate.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Minor- ... SwB4NWuPXU
The clutch release mechanism looks to be ok. No need to spend money where not required.
Replace the relay rubber bush in the chassis leg with a poly bush and make sure that the spherical ball at the gearbox end of the shaft is in serviceable condition.
Check the condition of the gearbox mounting rubbers.
Genuine Borg and Beck clutches are good.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Austin-A40-MK ... xyaoFSE5DP
Even if you put off replacing the engine the parts you have already purchased will not go to waste.
You will need the gasket that goes between the block and the 1098cc rear engine plate Pt No: AEG554B (MOSS).
Get all the parts together and the job could be easily completed over a weekend.
Phil

[RobThomas]

Peatree. Where are you located? Strangely, I have a 1098 flywheel, backplate and (old-ish) clutch that I don't want on a 948 engine and I need the 948 parts. No release bearing, though. I'm in Cardiff.

[ManyMinors]

Genuine Borg and Beck clutches are good.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Austin-A40-MK ... xyaoFSE5DP
Phil

It depends on what you mean by "Genuine Borg & Beck" I think Phil. This is another case of the name having been sold off to a company who make cheap products in far-off countries disguised by clever packaging isn't it?
You have to pay a bit more to purchase an original equipment quality UK made clutch. Now marketed as "AP Driveline" I think.

[philthehill]

That is why I said genuine Borg and Beck and I also suggested above using the old 1098cc pressure plate - as if working ok and not worn will still give many miles of use.
There are a couple of good S/H clutch assys on 'e' bay at the moment at a reasonable price which may be worth a consideration.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/morris-minor- ... SwboVXOiO5
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-A40-FA ... OSwG-1W1W9~
Or NOS
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-1000-A ... OSwG-1W1W9~
Phil

[bmcecosse]

Great pictures. The assembly can be used as is - but the carbon thrust bearing is worn - although still some left - but perhaps all you really need is a new carbon thrust of the correct type with more of an offset towards the clutch pressure assembly. I don't think this needs a lot of cash - but it does mean popping the engine out to get at that carbon thrust. Using a thicker 1098 backplate will just push the 'box even further away from the clutch - so if you do that, you will need a 1098 flywheel and clutch to go with it. That would be the ideal combination - otherwise the 948 and 1098 are same dimensions in that area.

[Peatree]

Peatree. Where are you located? Strangely, I have a 1098 flywheel, backplate and (old-ish) clutch that I don't want on a 948 engine and I need the 948 parts. No release bearing, though. I'm in Cardiff.

I'm in South East London - unfortunately! Sounds like doing a swap might have worked for us, but I couldn't be sure of getting around to retrieving the parts you need from mine for quite a few weeks in all honesty so I'd hate to keep you waiting!

If you have your parts out and were willing to sell and post them then I'd be interested?

[Peatree]

Great pictures. The assembly can be used as is - but the carbon thrust bearing is worn - although still some left - but perhaps all you really need is a new carbon thrust of the correct type with more of an offset towards the clutch pressure assembly. I don't think this needs a lot of cash - but it does mean popping the engine out to get at that carbon thrust. Using a thicker 1098 backplate will just push the 'box even further away from the clutch - so if you do that, you will need a 1098 flywheel and clutch to go with it. That would be the ideal combination - otherwise the 948 and 1098 are same dimensions in that area.

Thanks for the info - sounds simple, but do you know if this is actually achievable? Everything I've read online, and certainly Phil's comprehensive info, suggests the best way is a complete upgrade to 1098 parts. Now that I understand this a bit better I do believe the amount of additional travel required would be very hard to achieve. I'd also be concerned that everything could generally do with an overhaul anyway, given this has clearly been this way for some time - who knows what damage I'll find!

Starting to feel like a 1098 engine makes sense again, but even then I'm likely to need to do a complete overhaul of the engine plus clutch parts to make it worth my while...argh! Anyone got an engine...!?!

[Peatree]

That is why I said genuine Borg and Beck and I also suggested above using the old 1098cc pressure plate - as if working ok and not worn will still give many miles of use.
There are a couple of good S/H clutch assys on 'e' bay at the moment at a reasonable price which may be worth a consideration.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/morris-minor- ... SwboVXOiO5
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-A40-FA ... OSwG-1W1W9~
Or NOS
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-1000-A ... OSwG-1W1W9~
Phil

Phil - thanks for all your prompt and detailed info - I'm veering towards doing a thorough job of this at the mo using your advice, unless a usable 1098 engine comes up, but that seems a shame when my engine seems quite a goodun at the mo!

[Peatree]

....on second thoughts, think I've lost interest in getting a 1098 now having read around a bit more - seems the 948 is a nice little engine and ideal for what I'll be using it for, i.e., no motorway journeys! Think I'm drawing closer to a solution.... thanks all!