Racing with Morris Minor Suspension

[racrdave52]

Gentlemen, I just joined your group as I have acquired a vintage racer with Morris Minor suspension bits. The "VAY Special" as it is known as was built in 1957 and won the "Canadian Class" championship in 58 and 59. The basic rules required production car suspension and motive power. The "VAY" has Morris Minor torsion bar up front and MGA in the rear. Braking is accomplished through MGA 10" drums. The car originally had 948 power but through the years morphed into a 1275. Car competed regularly in Canada and California from the 90's to present. I purchased the car at Christmas and brought it back to the East Coast (Virginia). I have yet to have it on track but through photos it appears the car has positive camber while on track. I have read with much interest the posts concerning negative camber eyebolts and mods to make it all work. Looking for information on where I might procure this un-obtanium or dimensions for my machinist friend to build such a beast. Also info on anti-roll bar procurement and lessons learned would be helpful as well.

Google VAY special the previous owner put together a web site for the car that I hope to continue.

Thanks
Dave (from Virginia)[frame][/frame]

[racrdave52]

Additional Photo[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

Amazing car - well done. Any pictures of how the front suspension lower arms connect to the chassis? And are the upper arms still the Minor 'lever arm' dampers ? Torsion bar suspension is fine - it's what all the Formula 1 cars use !

[racrdave52]

The front still uses the lever arms and there are shocks and coil springs in the rear. I will get some more pictures out soon. The car was raced regularly through the sixties and ended up in storage. It was restored by a Canadian racer by the name of Mike Rosen in the early 90's. With its history it was a regular participant at the Monterey Historic event.

[bmcecosse]

So is that allowed ? Coil springs/dampers are hardly what was used on the MGA! The front end does look a little bit +ve camber - but of course the car may have been made up to hadle nicely with that. You wouldn't need much of a spacer behind that bottom arm 'eyebolt' to bring the suspension upright - possibly very slightly -ve. 1/4" should probably do it if there is enough thread on the end to ensure the securing nut can be fully engaged. The other top tip - which may well already be in place - is to drain the front dampers and refill with SAE 40 (or maybe even 50) oil.

[racrdave52]

Found some!

[racrdave52]

Would help if I hit save! [frame][/frame]

[racrdave52]

Another one.[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

Yes - I looked at them on the website. Neatly built car.

[racrdave52]

History[frame][/frame]

[racrdave52]

Second Page[frame][/frame]

[philthehill]

A very nice car!
These are the negative camber eye bolts you may be referring to.
Originally made and supplied by Minor Mania.
Unfortunately no longer available from Minor Mania.
These particular ones (as received) were sat in an office draw at Minor Mania for at least 15 years before I bought them as no one wanted them.[frame][/frame]
The spacers allow for the camber to be set at 2 degrees negative / 3 degrees negative and 4 degrees negative.
Your source of negative eye bolts would be appreciated.
As regards ant-roll bars - I use a 9/16" dia anti-roll bar on the front of my very much lightened comp minor and it seems to work very well.
Phil

[bmcecosse]

But of course the U washers are frowned upon - since they let water/dirt in to the chassis mount. Probably not important for a track car - but just in case anyone else picks up the thread.

[philthehill]

No different to those originally supplied by BMC when changing from screwed top pins to rubber bushed top pins.
I would suggest that a good majority of Minors on the road still have the 'U' washer (Pt No: 183471-Z) between the eye bolt and chassis rail.[frame][/frame]
My 1958 Minor with rubber top trunnion bushes had the 'U' washer until I inserted distance pieces between eye bolt and chassis rail to increase negative camber.
The nut holding the eye bolt in place was a plain nut with spring washer.
Phil

[IslipMinor]

Dave,

Looking at one of the videos linked to the website, it looks like you are running cross ply tyres? Not sure that they like too much negative camber? To change the camber means putting a spacer between the 'eye bolt' and the chassis mounting. Spacing it out 1/8" will give around 1° of camber change. If you have at least 1/8" of full thread showing after the eye bolt securing nut, then you could move the lower arm out by 1/8". Not sure if you would want any more?

A by-product of moving the lower suspension arm out is to increase the castor angle by about the same amount - unless you have adjustable tie rods? Depending on where you started with the castor angle (standard Minor is 3°), increasing it improves the 'turn-in' response to the steering wheel, improves straight running stability and makes the static steering effort a bit heavier (only really noticeable when parking or very low speed manoeuvring - so not likely to be a problem with a race car!).

The reason for needing 'negative camber' eye bolts is that when you lower the suspension on a standard car, the camber angle goes increasingly positive and there is not enough thread to get a small amount of negative camber with the car lowered by around 2". The negative camber eye bolts push the pivot point out so that camber can be set correctly for a lowered car - it would be much too much negative on a standard height car! If you have 1/4" of thread protruding beyond the nut, I don't think you will need negative camber bolts.

Here is one I made earlier, compared to a standard one:
[frame][/frame]
And fitted on the car:
[frame][/frame]
The result is around 1° negative camber, without spacers as I measured the additional offset required (with more available with spacers if required) and pin sharp, but extremely stable and predictable steering.

The picture below was before fitting the new eye bolts and still has a small amount of positive camber.

[twincamman]

Richard

Any chance of a 'how-to' on those?

[IslipMinor]

Hi,

Yes of course. I think I have kept the sketch with the dimensions - please send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a copy of it.

There is a video that I took whilst making them on YouTube - the lathe is a Harrison M300 and the splashing of coolant during the manufacture persuaded me to get a chuck guard and for safety as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQepEqudZA

[philthehill]

To assist in adjusting the steering geometry on your track car you can make up adjustable tie rods.
These are the adjustable tie rods fitted to my Minor.
The kit is made up of a original Minor tie rod and the front end of a Mini rose jointed tie bar kit.
These adjustable tie rods have worked well on my Minor for many years.[frame][/frame]

Here is the front suspension on my Minor and you can see how the anti roll bar is/was originally connected to the suspension.
The anti-roll bar has been fitted to the car for a very long time and was one of the first suspension mods carried out by me in the very early 1970s.[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

As mentioned earlier - just spacing out the lower arm with washers will also increase the castor angle nicely -it's not something you want to over-do. I assume you will have already fitted polyurethane bushings (or possibly even better for 'racing' -hard nylon bushings).

[philthehill]

Richard
Looking at your video you use what appears to be a hard plastic bush to size the bore of the eye bolt - is the bush hard plastic and was it sourced from Minor Mania?
Below are the two Minor Mania eye bolts prior to being fitted. The bushes fitted are the hard plastic ones from Minor Mania but shortened to allow two bushes to be fitted to each eye so giving a thrust face fore and aft. Also I have fitted grease nipples to the eyes.
Also shown are the plates that go between the eye bolt and chassis leg to distribute the loading around the chassis eye bolt tube.
It is most important to fit these plates as excessive loading around the eye can cause the eye to break out of the chassis leg.
I note that the chassis leg of Richards Minor has been strengthened around the eye bolt.
Phil[frame][/frame]