Genuine convertible or not?

[Baja_sandrail]

Hi everybody.

My first post on here.

Im totally new to the world of Morris Minor ownership, in fact I am not even in that world yet however I may soon be the owner of a mid 1960s Morris Minor convertible. However, I just wanted to make sure about this one question before rushing into something I have no idea about. I hope you guys can help me?

I have a friend who knows these cars a little and he told me that the biggest thing I have to make 100% sure is that its a genuine convertible, because at least according to him fake convertibles outnumber real ones.

So, how do I tell the difference between a real one and a not-so-real one? Are there any obvious things to look for?

I used to race swamp and sand buggies so I kind of know my way around the insides of cars but I have no clue about Morris Minors.

Thanks in advance.

[bmcecosse]

Can you post up the chassis number of the car ? That will tell us right away. Also look for strengthening gusset plates between A pillar and dash panel - one each side.

[Baja_sandrail]

Thanks very much for your reply.

I dont know the car's VIN yet, and also since its not my car yet I am not sure how comfortable the current owner would be with his car's VIN being posted on a forum.

However, is there a way you can explain how to deduce whether its a convertible or not from the VIN? Is it a case of certain number/letter combinations meaning different body styles or something? Like a lot of car companies have a 3-digit code that tells you with what specification the car left the factory?

Thank you.

[minijojo]

hello,
take a look at this side, Chassis Number Identification section, there you will find the informations you need

http://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Identify.htm

[Baja_sandrail]

I see. Great, that looks like what I need!

So, I don't want to see MA2S and I want to see MAT as the first characters, right?

[mike.perry]

Make sure that the chassis plate is in similar condition to the rest of the car, you do not want to see a new shiny plate or evidence that it has been swapped. Also the number on the plate should be the same as that stamped on the engine compartment bulkhead near where the accelerator cable comes through.
There is nothing wrong with a conversion as long as it has been done properly and the seller declares it as such. The value will be less than an original

[ManyMinors]

I have seen several cars with the correct chassis plate from a genuine convertible screwed onto a converted saloon, so don't take TOO much notice of that. A lot of VERY rusty convertibles have been resurrected that way. Also, by the mid 1960s the chassis number was no longer stamped into the bulkhead but into the RH front floorpan which has often suffered from corrosion of course.

Best way to see for sure is to look up from inside the boot and see if scars remain from where the roof was spot welded on. Also to see if the three holes remain in the rear bulkhead where the headlining board is fitted to the saloon version.

The shape of the B post stiffeners is a give-away and the way they are welded on but you do have to know the difference first of course. I don't have any photos I can post unfortunately.

When I bought my own convertible I looked at a good number of "genuine" ones because that was my preference. At least half were conversions and most of the genuine cars were rusty and patched up. In the end I opted for a conversion because it is just as much fun, cost a lot less and had a much better rust-free body shell. You just have to spend the time looking for the car which suits your needs the best.

Good luck with your search. Post some pictures here if you can of the crucial areas and plenty of people will be able to give advice. Alternatively, take a local knowledgeable club member/owner with you when you view the car.

[Baja_sandrail]

Well, thanks to you guys i now know whats up! I really appreciate the info despite my panicky first post without even introducing myself.

It now seems that although its a very clean rust-free car and everything is in good condition, unfortunately it did in fact start life as a 2s!!!

So i guess now the question is, would i spend 5.5k on it knowing its not a real convertible? And more importantly, if i drive it for a month and decide its not for me, would someone else then spend 5.5k on it?

A wise person once said that if you are buying a car for the first time of a type which you never owned before, always buy it at a price which someone else will give you back if you dont like it.

I have a feeling the answer is no.

[ASL642]

A good well converted convertible is worth that. Genuine ones do come on the market but there are not that many around. Hence many 2 drs have been converted.

(Speaking as the owner of a converted convertible)

[bmcecosse]

An important test for any convertible is to look at the door - to - B pillar gap on both sides when two people get in and sit in the front seats... If the gap closes up........ run a mile.

[Baja_sandrail]

So, say you personally had 5.5k in your pocket and wanted to buy a convertible, would you buy a good but non-genuine one and be comfortable getting that money back again without too much trouble if you dont like it? Or are you just going to be stuck for months with people offering you 3750 and telling you thats all its worth, and maybe someone will eventually give you 5k but by that time you are so sick if car buyers cause youve been trying to sell it for 6 months?

(Yup, been there)

[ASL642]

Only if you are happy to pay £5,000 for the car. It's your money. If you are worried you will not get your money back look for a cheaper car. Most of the people on this site buy a car because they want a Morris Minor to drive and enjoy - not many buy them for an investment Some years the prices increase - some years they decrease.

If you are really worried about making sure you will get a good car take a person who knows what the car should look like and can check it out for you. If the vendor is worried about you lifting a carpet for inspection walk away!

[Baja_sandrail]

Well, its kinda complicated for me. While I don't see it as an ''investment'' per se, I wasn't actively looking for a Morris Minor. Because of various circumstances the opportunity to own this one appeared. My first thoughts were '''why would I want a car with 40hp?!'' but then I thought about it some more and thought hmm you know what, you only live once, why not go for it, I could always sell it if I don't like it. So I did some research and had a drive in my friends Morris Minor, and generally I thought it seemed pretty cool, but you have to remember that I have no idea whether I am Morris Minor compatible or not. That takes at least a couple of months to find out.

As an example, I always wanted an original mini cooper. I had many test-drives and went thru many candidates and eventually found one I thought I liked. 2 months later I figured out that since I don't have 3 knees per leg and am over 4 ft tall, its absolutely horrible to drive after the novelty wore off.

So its this eventuality that I am worried about, just in case. Who knows, this could be the coolest car ever and ill keep it forever, but what if its not?

I drove the Morris Minors bigger and very very inappropriately named brother for a few months and really liked it, but that's a much bigger car.

[chickenjohn]

Can you post up the chassis number of the car ? That will tell us right away. Also look for strengthening gusset plates between A pillar and dash panel - one each side.

The car could have been given a fake chassis plate. And could have had the re-enforcing panels mig welded on.

Check for spot welds holding on the A pillar to dash strengtheners and spot welds holding the B pillar to sill strengtheners in place rather than mig weld seams or plug welds which would betray the car as being converted.

Also a genuine car will have an extra strengthening panel inside the sills. But this may have been lost during a past restoration.

But really, the only difference between genuine and converted, (if the conversion was done properly) is that you should pay a bit less for a converted than a genuine. It's far more important to buy a convertible that is in excellent structural condition rather than choose a "genuine" over a converted car.

Jack the car under the crossmember, the door gap should not get any wider, if it does the car is seriously weakened in the sill and possibly A pillar areas. I know of one genuine convertible car (with a valid MOT!!) that when you jack it under the crossmember the gap widens so much that the doors ping open.

and yes, this car was an ex "CW" restoration!

[bmcecosse]

If you want an open top car with PLENTY of leg room - and excellent performance - go for a TR7 Drop Head Coupe. Much better handling than a Minor too..... The same tests re door gaps apply of course - as they do to ANY open top car before buying. If you couldn't manage a Mini Cooper driving position - the Minor is no better. Both have plenty of room for my 6'3" - but perhaps you are taller... You can of course change seats and so on - but you could have done that in the Mini too if it was a 'deal breaker' for you !

[aupickup]

mini cooper is better comfort than any minor and better road control
best still a tr6

[bmcecosse]

Dare say - but rather a different price range Dennis !

[aupickup]

ah yes
I used to own one in the mid seventies

[parkview094]

Thought I would share a few thoughts on this as we recently went through exactly the same dilemma with a similar budget to spend.

All the research I did on genuine vs. converted convertibles suggested that actually in practice there was nothing much to choose between them and that a good conversion was better than a ropey original. In the end, buying a conversion just didn't sit well with me. I was envisaging having an accident in it in which someone got hurt and wondering "was this somehow made worse by a poor conversion I hadn't been able to identify"? Consequently, we narrowed our search to just original convertibles, but had to up the budget.

We looked at a lot of cars in the end (including 1 conversion) and experienced a lot of 'creative' descriptions of the cars condition. With the exception of only 1 of the cars we looked at, all have now sold even though I personally wouldn't have given them a second thought.

Finally, I ended up buying a 1953 convertible which I'm very happy with, but despite being over budget still needed a fair amount of works on the brakes/cooling to make driveable.

Any reason you especially want a convertible? My first car, which I learned to drive in 18 years ago, was a 1964 Traveller. I loved that car and we took it all over from Wales down to the south of France. I drove it to school every day and with the boot it was extremely practical. I would have considered another, but I'm not sure how long we'll have our garage for and the thought of looking after the wood on a traveller again made me nervous.

The convertible we've now got is a surprisingly different beast to that traveller. The handling is awful and the suspension is non-existant I suspect that some of this will be down to the age and condition of the car, but the lack of a solid roof and different suspension makes for certainly a unique driving experience. Or maybe I've just gotten old? That said, we both love our new purchase and to my surprise, even my wife has now driven it.

If you're concerned about whether you will like the car or not, why not hire one for a day/weekend and go on a reasonable trip in it? A small outlay to save the hassle of re-selling a regretful purchase with an additional owner on the logbook..

[jaekl]

Besides the originality part, there really is no difference. An original convertible is actually a converted saloon anyway. Then consider virtually every Minor is now severely rusted and need extensive rebuilding. Due to the double metal sills in convertibles (and travelers), they are especially prone to rust and need to be rebuilt correctly. In that regard one can argue that most original convertibles aren't original anymore. If you are choosing a convertible for the enjoyment of the open car, then a converted one is probably the preferred one. The selection of course is dependent on the quality of the repairs/conversions, which is true when buying any vintage vehicle. Without a thorough inspection there is no way of knowing if an original convertible has been repaired properly and a properly done conversion is structurally the same as an out of the factory convertible. As pointed out the door opening changes will clearly identify a compromised convertible.