1098 Gearbox bearing play?

[CDYMOGGY]

Hi all, some of you might remember that the clutch went south on my 1965 Moggy a little while ago. I've pulled the engine and box out to do the job.. Since then the head and sumps been off the engine and the whole thing has been repainted and assembled with new gaskets to help stop leaks! See pictures below

I have (perhaps stupidly) left the gearbox until last.. I removed the worn release bearing and began to clean out the bell housing with a white spirit, a brush and a cloth. Once it was cleaned up I gave the input shaft a clean off and very soon felt play. Quite a bit. I then felt the shaft at the back of the engine, even more play. Is this play acceptable. It doesn't feel or look good, but i understand some boxes are built with play which is taken up upon assembly.

Some history, the box has had a noise in 3rd. It comes and goes... And seemed to stop all together when I oiled up the clutch mech after it slipped.

I have a video of the suppected play.. Which will hopefully upload ok.

I was hoping to have the engine back in the weekend and the car mot'ed for Monday. But it's looking unlikely now.

[CDYMOGGY]

Video didn't seem to upload. So I've put it in n YouTube... I think it's knackered. But open to opinions. Cheers, Dan

http://youtu.be/U-6r-zXQL4Y

[bmcecosse]

Shaft at the back of the engine 'has play' ??? The crankshaft? Did you fit new shells and rings to the engine - more likely to stop leaks than paint!! There is a phos/bronze bush in the tail of the crank - if this is worn the gbox input shaft bearing takes a hammering. In addition - if you stored the gbox standing on the bellhousing -all the crap inside will have run down into the first motion shaft bearing - so that will need at least careful washing out - and probably best to renew it. DO NOT run it without doing this... Is the gbox otherwise good when you look in the side cover?

[CDYMOGGY]

Hi. Sorry I meant the tail end of the gearbox. No play in the engines crank shaft... Gearbox had a noise in 3rd but it could well have been the play in bearings transferring itself up the gear stick. Did you watch the video? It explains the play better than I can put it into writing.

[kennatt]

There will always be a bit of play but that does look a bit too much, a known good second hand box would be the way then have yours rebuilt unless you don't need the car back on the road in a hurry. If its noisy as you say then may as well sort it whilst out of the car.

[bmcecosse]

Noise in 3rd suggests wear in the layshaft bearings - or perhaps just general wear. Does the syncro work ok in 2nd and 3rd - no 'jumping out' of gear ?

[SUE482]

From my limited experience of re-building gearboxes, one, I would suggest that it is very excessive and indicates a worn or damaged 3rd motion shaft bearing (10G184/22A465) or possibly the roller bearing (10G140/CHM172) that fits into the 1st motion shaft that the 3rd motion shaft fits into.
Do a rebuild and follow the excellent pdf by biomed32uk: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/509 ... ebuild.pdf

[CDYMOGGY]

Hi all, thanks for the replies. I thought it wasn't quite right. The spare box has no play in the tail end at all... It was sold as a good box. But it has been stood on its end for a number of years. Is the front bearing easy to get at? And to get out? I'm happy to clean the bearing out if it's possible to remove it from the gearbox without having to remove much else.

The cars original box was noisy in 3rd but not all the time, it also had more recently developed a small noise when changing from first to second. But it's never jumped out of gear. The oil was spotless. So this wear damage must have accured years ago, and since we've had 2008 onwards) it's been running like it. The bell housing was caked in oil, which given the worm gearbox bearings seems to suggest to me that it's mostly from the box. The engine back plate and clutch assembly was quite dry and clean.

I'll have a look at the spare box. I'm not in a massive rush. If I can half th car on the road by the end of this month for Peterboroughs BMC rally I'd be a happy chap. If worse comes to worse I could pull the box from the traveller (it's a scrapper really)

Wish I had checked the box over more when I first pulled them out. At least I would have had more time to source parts ect.

Cheers, Dan

[bmcecosse]

If you remove the front plate you should be able to wash the bearing out well enough. Use some sort of 'pressure' feed to force paraffin or similar through it.

[CDYMOGGY]

I've had another look at the gearboxes I have... The gearbox pictured is the one out of the car. It's incredibly clean inside, like I said it did have clean oil. I've found the wear. It's inbetween what I guess to be second and third? The gears in the middle of the two selectors. You can see it moving up and down as you move the output shaft at the back of the gearbox. Which I guess was what made the noise on occasion in 3rd gear. All the gears look to be in great condition, what you can see of the shafts the gears move on looks great too. So it's certainly capable of being rebuilt, probably only needing what comes in the rebuild kits. However this is beyond me at the moment, so I think I'm going to put this box to one side for now. It would seem that the car was probably a city driver with a lot of 2nd to 3rd gear changes.. It's too nice inside to be sudden damage from lack of oil. So I've turned to the spare boxes.

Spare box one. The one that was bought to replace this box, it selects gears fine and doesn't sound bad when turned over. I'll clean the box and remove the side cover to check play and grit on the gears, the front bearing will need cleaning out, I'll try paraffin and blushing it past the bearing. Should I try to get the air on the bearing from inside to blow it out the bell housing or blow it out from the front into the gearbox? However the gears seem to have more back lash than the box out of the car. How much movement is too much?

Spare box two. I have no history on this one. It most likely came from a scrapped traveller many years ago. So it's probably been standing up right for the better part of 25 years. It sounds rough when turning over. So I'm going to pop the cover off. A lot less back lash than the other. So possibly a better option if it's clean inside.

Spare box three. Is in a 1960 traveller, it's the correct box for the car (it must have been changed, speedo is a later type in the car too) the car was in regular use until 1992 when it went off the road. It was used to tow a caravan. But I guess a lot of travellers did back in the day. It also selects nicely.. The car does drive too. So I think it will be my best option?

Unless anyone in the Peterborough area has a good box. That's been stored properly for sale?

Cheers, Dan[frame][/frame]

[CDYMOGGY]

A picture of the donor gearbox carrying traveller... It's very rough. Does have a gold seal engine. I have toyed with the idea of taking all the wood off and making a back yard pickup out of it. Not for the orignality people hehe[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

The noise from box2 will be all the debris in the first motion bearing...

[CDYMOGGY]

The noise from box2 will be all the debris in the first motion bearing...

I've started to clean up the possible replacement gearbox. It's clean inside and there's no movement in the places where there's play in the other gearbox... So I've started to have a go at cleaning out the front bearing. Removed the housing and couldn't see any signs of grit/metal filings from the box. So I've started by spraying it with wd-40.. From the back and the front I believe this blasted the crud out. But the bearing sounds rough. At slow speeds it sounds ok. But spring in up and it sounds awful. A deep rumble. What you'd expect from a worn ball race bearing. I can only imagine how awful it would sound at 50 mph at somewhere around 3000rpm. I squirted some oil over the gears etc to see if that would quiet it down at all. No difference. So I drained it down again and gave it all a going over with some 20w50 oil but still not much change... Whilst doing this I did notice that the whole assembly slides forward. I know it's withdraw from the front of the bell housing, so can it be taken out with everything else in the box? Theory being I can swap the noisy first motion shaft completely with the one from the cars box to make one sound gearbox?

Dan

[bmcecosse]

The bearing will come out the front - but the gear is too big - so you will have to carefully drive the bearing out and then fit another either new or from another box. They are not expensive - I think I would fit new for piece of mind.

[CDYMOGGY]

I've opted to spend a little more time on the spare box, it's easier than pulling the engine out of another car! So today I gave the bearing a clean out with compressed air, from inside the box to blow the dirt out the front of the bearing. Then cleaned it out with paraffin which helped a lot. Oiled the bearing and it sounds much happier. Went threw all the gears oiling the shafts, bearings, syncros and gears as I went.. It all sounds ok now. I'm happy enough to give the gearbox a try. Whilst I'm rebuilding the cars original box. Which I now will take me a while. The car will probably only cover 400 odd miles before we hit the winter months where use goes down to almost zero.

So I'm cleaning the outside of the box now. I've got gaskets on order, a new tail end oil seal and a shim for the front bearing side... I really hope it works when it's in the car!

Dan

[SUE482]

Well from what you describe I would say its the roller bearing that fits in the 1st motion shaft and what the 3rd motion shaft fits into namely 10G140/CHM172, that would explain the excessive movement. Do a complete rebuild its worth it.
Back to the removal of all the parts, just follow the Haynes manual. I found it ok up to the point when the 1st motion shaft is removed, instead drive the shaft in as it says but by only just enough to enable the circlip to be removed from the bearing and then drive it back into the gearbox and remove the assembly from the inside. Cheers Ian.

[bmcecosse]

Well done cleaning out the bearing - I'm sure it will be fine - and a lesson I learned the hard way by storing a box on it's nose..

[CDYMOGGY]

Thanks chaps. I'll certainly give rebuilding the original gearbox a try over the winter months. It'll take me a while. I'll invest in the Haynes manual and use the link provided for rebuilding. I've managed to clean the box now so I'm just waiting to get gaskets and seals. I've cut the old tail shaft seal and dust cover off to replace it, just as well as the oil seal was rock hard..

I'll be sure to never store a gearbox on its end now..

Dan

[bmcecosse]

I wouldn't bother with the Haynes..... You can get a free download of the Morris Minor Workshop Manual by Googling for it....we're not allowed to show you where.....

[CDYMOGGY]

Already printed the gearbox pages off