Our 1st Moggy. 1956 Split Screen. WSL 230

[XWL61]

I have asked for a full refund or £750 in compensation, which nearly covers half of the £1620 welding costs. I feel that this is a fair and reasonable offer, so the choice is theirs. Option 1 or option 2. As I am entitled to a full refund, I am quite happy to go down this route if they do not agree to the compensation.

You paid over £3K for the car, and at that price, IMO, it shouldn't require ANY structural welding, so I am bemused why you seem to be prepared to seek only £750 compensation and pay another £870 to have the welding done and consider this a fair and reasonable offer. Who said the welding will cost £1620? - the dealer ?? The cheapest option for the dealer is £750 compensation.
Demand a full refund, with costs ,and walk away and buy a better car,(and make sure someone knowledgeable checks it out for you).
If no joy, take the dealer to the small claims court. Its easy to do. I've done it over a car related matter and won, and the dealer subsequently went bust for good measure
Also worth having a word with VOSA over Kwikfits Mot standards.....

Andy

ps - Don't forget about your 3.9 diff either!

[Steamerpoint]

I guess I am being a bit soft because I like the car. I know that if I ask for the full £1620, they will probably take the car back for sure! It's a shame about the diff if they take the car back. The £320 I paid is lost I guess, but maybe I can sell the original diff for a few quid.

Can I really buy a solid split screen series 2 for that sort if money?

I'm not sure I can really wait 8 weeks for a decision from Santander, so it looks like I will need to start following the legal route anyway. The problem is that the small claims court applies up to the value of £3000, but we paid over this amount, so it's county court territory!

[bmcecosse]

The old 5.3 diff is worthless...... Only a Hill Climber may have a use for it..... I'm assuming the price you quote includes the fitting... Back to the car - I can't get my head round the idea that Santander would be likely to refund you £3000+ when you only put £1000 on their card.... There could be no end to that idea ! I still suggest you do not take the car back to them - unless they hand you a complete refund (and not a rubber cheque...) of course - and in that case - swap the diffs back ! You know how to now.... If you are determined to seek compensation - start with a Lawyer's Letter I suppose...... But I would be going for a full refund - and find another better car. There's no shortage......

[MrIan]

It all boils down to how much you stand to loose ie the diff job or how much you are prepared to pay to have the car. The ideal would be for the dealer to meet you half way or there abouts for repairs. Even at that though there's that niggling thought that he got away with it. Also on a plus if you do end up keeping it, you'll have a car that doesn't depreciate with age not like these modern jobmewhatsits do.

[Steamerpoint]

I can't get my head round the idea that Santander would be likely to refund you £3000+ when you only put £1000 on their card.... There could be no end to that idea !

What protection does it give me?
When you use your credit card to pay for goods or services between £100 and £30,000, Section 75 holds your credit card provider 'jointly and severally' responsible for your purchase. This means that you have the right to claim a refund from your credit card provider if there is a problem with the goods or services you ordered.

From what I can tell is that Santander is jointly liable and for the full purchase price, even though only £1000 went on the card.
Banks will generally try to wriggle out of these claims if they can because the money will come out of their pocket and undoubtedly someone in Santander will be on some kind of commission if they can get rid of me without paying!
I already had to convince the Asian sounding woman in Customer Services that I have a claim because she told me I wasn't entitled, because I had paid using a chip and pin!!! What!!!!! I had just been told to contact them by Trading Standards to make a claim, so I wasn't going to give up that easily! She went away for a few minutes and then began to process a claim.

I have been doing some reading and invariably, many claims are rejected by the banks and many are then referred to the Financial Ombudsman or the courts before a result is achieved! I think Santander will attempt to contact the dealer and hear their side of the story first. Often banks drag out the process because they can't reach the trader or try to get the customer to take legal action against the trader first, though I understand that this is not legally necessary. Many customers are fobbed off and give up or find that the things they are asked to provide costs more than the initial claim. i.e obtain written quotes from a plumber etc. With the amount we are talking about, bring it on and any additional costs can be added to the final bill as they are called Consequential Losses.

There could come a point where I get a refund from Santander and still get to keep the car because the dealer hasn't paid anything back, but equally, this could go on for years. I'm in no rush though. I still have a Morris Minor in my garage that is not depreciating unlike a modern car. There is no MOT or Road Tax to worry about running out and at some point in the future I know that I will be happy given the dealers appalling advert is so completely wrong. Just not sure if I should continue to chase the dealer also or not?

Also, it matters not if the dealer folds and declares bankruptcy as Santander are jointly liable.

[MrIan]

Just a thought, I'd be careful then using the vehicle if you're going to take on Santander, as maybe if Santander feel you've been using the car they might class you as accepting it in it's current condition and also again by using it you feel it is safe to do so.
Just a thought as obviously they'll try anything and everything to get out of refunding the full price for an item that they have only partly funded via their system.

[Steamerpoint]

Good point MrIan.

I understand that when trying to reject a vehicle under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, you must stop using the vehicle anyway.

[tysonn]

Sorry to read this sorry tale.A couple of points to raise.In the last ten years I have take 3 people through the small claims procedure.Won all 3.All 3 had CCJs imposed and ordered to pay the full amount plus costs.NONE paid one penny!You have 6 years to take whatever further action you wish to get payment including:hire bailiffs,payments deducted from wages etc etc.However all these actions have to be paid for BY YOU!The extra costs get added to what they owe,if they continue not to pay you just lost more money.Yes it stinks.In my last claim which was a cheap runabout I bought for my grandson off Ebay to get to his new job(which turned out to be stolen) I was so incenced when the crook didnt pay I wrote to my MP asking why once a judge had made an order the court wouldnt pursue non payment.Just got fobbed off.Yes people do get lucky and get what theyre owed but if you don't,its not as easy as it should be to do and you could easily end up even more out of pocket than you were.
My next point will probably hurt but I honestly think many of the bad areas in the video were not hidden or covered up or hard to spot even for a complete novice.Yes the description was way off but you do have to use a modicum of common sense buying anything.Sorry.
Mick

[Steamerpoint]

Yes Mick I am aware that the court system is flawed. I have had to chase money several times over the last two decades through my job. It is however refreshing to learn that I have a level of protection under the Section 75 rules. While it might be hard to get money from a private individual after a court ruling, it is easier to get money back from a business. It is also easier to force a bank to pay up because they A. Have a reputation to protect, B. are regulated by the Financial Services Authority and C. the Financial Ombudsman can overturn their decision if they reject a claim.

Last night I received another email from Santander. It said:

"Thank you for your e-mail.

I can confirm that if your claim is accepted you are entitled to claim for the full purchase price as you paid part of it using your Santander credit card.

I have arranged for your claim to be raised and for a letter to be sent to confirm this.

Please allow up to 8 weeks for a decision to be reached."

Mick your last point is partially valid. I checked the sills had been replaced, which they had and lifted up the drivers carpet and could see a new, flat painted floor, I did not think to climb on the floor to check to rear cross member closely. The sun was shinning brightly and looking under the car from what I could see was a nicely undersealed black car. Furthermore, not knowing Morris Minors before buying one, it was unclear what to look for and where. The dealer had a shop full of classic Jags etc. and here before me was a shinny Morris Minor with a new paint job, brand new tyres and loads of new chrome.

I guess the situation deserved a level of trust, especially from a main street classic car dealer.

Sure hindsight and all that. Do more homework, bring overalls and a torch and trust no one.

 

[Mark Wilson]

Although Mick is absolutely correct to be pessimistic of the chances of getting paid after a successful claim, I did get paid out successfully, in installments, a few years ago. I agree with Chris that it is a totally different situation with a solvent limited company, and would be surprised if they didn't settle as soon as their lawyers looked at it.

[bmcecosse]

Since you bought the car from a car dealing Limited Company - it surely came with a Guarantee ? Even the dodgiest used car dealers around here give 3 months warranty on the cars.. So - they should fix all the problems under the warranty !

[Steamerpoint]

No warranty was given and even if there is something in law that says he should provide it, because his advertising was so false and misleading, I can reject the car for a full refund.

He claimed that the car was fully restored, which it isn't. Slapping a few patches on the chassis does not change this fact.

[TFM150K]

The garage were making a 'meal' of the diff swap - the hshafts only need to be pulled a few inches - and ram a rag in to catch any oil drips.... That Xmember is certainly near end-of -life. It's not a pleasant job to change it. I suggest probably ~ £500 to do it - plus the new Xmember of course... Depends how rotten the floors and sills are...these jobs tend to snowball unfortunately.....

What a sad tale - which I have only just come back to having read the first page and then 'lost' it! I have never used Ian at Ely but folks that have done have always presented a good image of him and he has as good a reputation as anyone in the area - and is a specialist - which counts for a lot. Roy is wrong in saying that you only need to pull the half-shafts a few inches - I am assuming that as oil on the brakes is mentioned, that the seals/gaskets had gone and the shafts have to come out to replace them. Roy is absolutely correct that welding jobs like the cross-member tend to snowball and that is why estimates of cost (whether from a specialist or any other garage) tend to be just that - estimates - cos it is only when you come to cut things out that you find the state of the thing to which they were attatched - and then the fun can start!
Good luck, steamerpoint, sounds like you deserve it!

[bmcecosse]

Seriously - I have changed a diff fairly recently - it took about 1.5 hours in total - and yes - shafts just out a few inches, rags to catch any oil dripping off... Changing half shaft gaskets/brake shoes etc is all extra work - not part of the original 'deal'. And the oil is simply added through one end of the axle tube - close up one side and set it back down on the wheel - squirt it in the other side from a bottle with a plastic delivery tube - and then close that side up and back on it's wheel. I do use pneumatic tools - which speeds up the undoing and tightening of nuts somewhat! Simples ! I would expect any competent 'garage' to also use pneum tools......

[MrIan]

No warranty was given and even if there is something in law that says he should provide it, because his advertising was so false and misleading, I can reject the car for a full refund.

He claimed that the car was fully restored, which it isn't. Slapping a few patches on the chassis does not change this fact.

It also boils down to how you feel about the car as in would you like to have it sorted and keep it. I'm 100% sure if you go down the Santander full refund option you'll loose it. A few patches on the chassis doesn't take it up to the dealers description no but it would be a cheap way to sort the car out for you and would last a good few years at least (but then we've not seen how bad the rot is so can't really be 100% sure).
It depends how you feel in relation to the car / the dealers description & attitude and what you'd like out of it.
To be honest looking at the pics it is a very tidy looking Mog so have you looked around for a car of the same age roughly that looks in the same condition to see what it's advertised at ? . Obviously if it's near to what you've paid for WSL230 including what would sort him welding wise then i'd keep him (but that's my personal opinion) Plus unless you get it removed you'll loose the cost of the diff change too.
Pros n Cons either way all down to a dealer that didn't bother to give a thorough inspection before sale !!!
Also from an earlier post of yours and this isn't a dig at you, regardless of private / dealer / well established dealer i'd have taken a torch and cardboard to have a look underneath as even if you don't know the car you're looking at a chassis rail is obvious.
Anyway good luck in whatever course you decide to take.

[SteveClem]

Yes indeed,good luck whichever way you decide to turn. As some wise man once said, the man who never made a mistake never made anything at all. We all know where not to go for a car and the word will pass around quickly. Hope you can stay in love with the car...

[Steamerpoint]

Looking around at other moggies of the same age and condition, I feel I have paid around £750 to £1000 too much! I need to spend around £2k on it to bring it up to the condition I thought I was buying.

If the dealer had agreed to meet me half way, I would have been content. Owning an old car comes with a level of responsibility to keep it going for the next owner many years down the line and this often requires a level of expenditure.

When I think back to the day, the dealer was quick to drive it out into the sunsine, before we had chance to park up our VW and car trailer. Perhaps he was ensuring it started ok and moved it away from the pool of oil on his garage floor! He knew it wasn't a sound car when we picked it up.

He needs to part with some money here for me to feel happy about keeping it and if he later wants to offer me some compensation before it goes back forever, I might be tempted to keep it. Right now, he is refusing to even communicate, so what options do I have?

Sure, I'll lose the £320 for the diff swap, but I'll have enough money to buy another nice Moggy, which will be checked out thoroughly.

Oh and take caution if using a Sports & Prestige car dealer in Lymington in the New Forest or their connected business with newer second hand vehicles at the rear of their business. Name withheld for legal reasons!

[bmcecosse]

I'm amazed you bought a car from a Dealer - and didn't insist on at least a 3 month warranty....

" Our after sales care is of the highest quality because we ensure that our customers' needs are met. We have gathered lots of experience and knowledge in a huge variety of used cars. For great deals in Lymington, Hampshire, Hills Of Lymington will have a car to suit all your needs at a price you'll love! "

[Steamerpoint]

I'm amazed you bought a car from a Dealer - and didn't insist on at least a 3 month warranty!

Before I won the auction, I asked the dealer if it was covered by a warrany and this was his reply:

"We can offer a warrenty but will have to check weather the car would be covered due to the age. I will be able to check this Tuesday as its bank holiday weekend. "

On winning the auction I rang them. They were surprised that I called because the email they received from ebay with the final price being less than £4k. They said it didn't sell because they had a £4k reserve on it. I checked ebay again and said sorry, ebay has confirmed my bid won the car. The dealer said I'm sorry mate I can't let it go at that, there has been a mistake. Any chance you could pay me a bit more, say meet me half way? I said no and he should take the matter up with whoever put the car on ebay! He said he would honour the sale, but could I pay in cash? Intially I thought I could and would pop to the bank, but then remembered it was a bank holiday weekend, so rang him back. I said I could get much of the cash, but would need to put some on a card! He agreed.

On the day of collection, he was a miserable bugger. When I spotted the rust holes under the drivers door, I said I wasn't happy to see this. He said if you don't want the car, I am happy to keep it. I have had calls from other people bidding on the car willing to buy it if it doesnt get collected. I asked again about the warranty and he said at that price, I'm not going to give a warranty as well. It's take it or leave it!

Basically he knew that we had driven nearly 5 hours to get there with a rented car trailer on the back and he had a feeling that it would take quite a bit for us to drive back empty handed!

Clever man. I am a little embarrassed telling all this, but if it stops someone else making the same mistakes...........

[MrIan]

Well it might not all be an attitude against you, it might very well be that he did want the reserve at £4,000 and someone slipped up. He might have needed £4,000 to cover what he allowed for it and discounted on the vehicle it was traded in for, you never know. Most dealers are happy to put a warranty on if they sell for what they want for the vehicle. So he might very well have not known the condition underneath (I know that's neither here nor there really as he should have looked).
So it might have been a nightmare sale for him (not got anough cash from sale now a pending return due to condition) as it has been a nightmare purchase for you (car not up to described standard and an abrupt salesman).
There is no excuse for him not responding now mind you, there is no need for that kind of attitude regardless from a dealer.