Our 1st Moggy. 1956 Split Screen. WSL 230

[MrIan]

Well,you are where you are and its a lovely looking moggy with some issues. Bite the bullet,get it sorted asap and you'll love it. You'll just beat yourself up fighting with the dealer and finish up hating the car...it's not her fault!

Exactly my thoughts too. Either bite the bullet n sort it all properly or get it correctly patched so you can be on the road quicker to enjoy the car.

[Steamerpoint]

I paid nearer the 3k mark for the car. I felt that this was reasonable after seeing all the receipts for work carried out last year. The sills and floor have been done. Disc brakes, new shoes and brake cyinders, brake servo, electronic ignition, external respray, lots of new chrome items including bumpers, wiper blades etc. and replacement engine, so quite a bit of money spent on it by the former owner. It was taken in part exchange on a classic beetle, but even still, the dealer should have checked it out before they advertised it.

[Steamerpoint]

Result! Under consumer protection, because I bought the car from a dealer, they must either take the car back or carry out full repairs if the car does not meet the standards it was advertised at.

I have contacted the dealer and he wants me to bring the car back to him so he can assess the condition.
He has told me that he won't give a refund, but is willing to get a local welder involved. Technically I don't think he has a choice in the matter. He started talking about splitting the welding costs with me 50/50 and tried to back pedal saying that he was relying on the MOT certificate, but I reminded him that whatever he did in assessing the car is not my concern and perhaps he should take it up with the MOT centre.

Thing is I do like the car, but it's not worth the 5k it would cost me to buy it and have it welded properly.
If he gets it repaired properly at his expense, then perhaps it is worth keeping, but how would I know it is done right by a non-morris specialist. I have also got the added hassle of getting it back to him 4 hours drive from here. AGGGGGH

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... -can-i-do-

[MrIan]

Well it is a result of sorts. I'm sure all he'll do is get it patched up mind you as it's quicker and cheaper but you never know. I feel if you wanted to go down the route of money back you'd have to get the diff swap done again.
4 hrs drive to drop it off but don't forget another 4 hrs drive to collect it again.
Fingers crossed all goes well.

[Steamerpoint]

Thanks. I have sent him an email and a vehicle rejection letter to get the ball rolling. I have basically given him two options. I will bring the car back at my expense for a full refund or will accept compensation equal to half the cost of full repairs carried out by a morris minor specialist, i.e. Minor Services. I do not want a welder to do some patch repairs to it so it lasts a few more years. I was led to believe that I was buying a fully restored classic car with a long MOT and a rebuilt engine. This is not what I got and I would have walked away at that price if they had been honest. If it was cheaper, I might have been tempted, so this is where I am trying to get to. Fingers crossed, but legally I should be able to get a full refund. I feel I am being reasonable.

[Mark Wilson]

If it makes you feel any better, you're not the first and probably not the last to fall prey to a dealer's "optimism". I bought my Traveller nearly four years ago from a "classic car specialist" in North Yorkshire, via eBay, for a little over £3k. It was described as an honest, solid car needing some tidying. I had Minors in the dim distant past and thought that I knew my way round them. I didn't. After some twists and turns involving a "rustproofing specialist" I started to dig into what I'd bought. As I was working away from home at the time it took me a long time to realise just how bad it was, too long to realistically seek redress.

I've so far replaced inner wings, complete sill sections, all floors, and centre cross member. I'm doing all four rear spring hangers and rear arches at the moment, and will be collecting new wood in a few weeks time.

To be fair, this is partly because I've got the bug and the project has changed from "smarten up and use as a low cost run around", to a fully comprehensive "as new restoration". It could have been run for quite a few years with a much lower level of repair - but in no way did it justify the glowing description the classic car specialist gave it, nor should it ever have been given the new MoT in came with.

Well done in getting somewhere with your dealer, don't let him off the hook now he's wriggling! Personally I'd go for the refund option, but you do get attached to these cars....

Mark

[Steamerpoint]

Sorry to hear that Mark.

I have today been on the phone to the parent company Hills of Lymington and had the phone put down on me twice! In a nutshell they want me to tow the car 5 hours back to them to look at it and then get their welder to carry out repairs, splitting the costs 50/50 with me. I have refused this and have asked for £750 (Less than half the repair costs) in compensation and will pay a Morris Minor specialist to do a proper job.
They are not willing to accept this.

I decided to call Trading Standards for advice. They tell me that I have every right to reject the car for a full refund, but may need to go to court to force this.

As I paid £1000 on a credit card for the car and the rest in cash, they have advised me to recover this £1000 from my credit card company under something called a Section 75D. Then maybe the company is willing to talk. Great idea.

I have just put the phone down to my credit card customer services who have initiated a claim for the £1000 to be refunded. With luck this will be successful, but it could take 8 weeks before I have an answer.

Here is a video I put together last night showing the corrosion, their advert etc, for others to guage and make an informed decision if they feel I am being reasonable or not!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAh1GbpPRk

[bmcecosse]

I suggest if you take the car back to them (4 hours ? I would only ever buy a car from a place within 20 minutes of my house!) - they will 'capture' it - maybe carry out some repairs (to what standard is anyone's guess...and on what time scale ...) - and refuse to release the car again till you pay the bill - and perhaps an ever increasing 'storage' charge of goodness knows how much. So beware - I would NOT take the car back to them..
As for the diff swap - 'cleaning oil off the shoes' ?? Seriously ?? If shoes have oil on them - they are scrap... And an hour to fill oil - at your expense ?? They've 'seen you coming'.... Avoid avoid....

[qwerty165]

As I paid £1000 on a credit card for the car and the rest in cash, they have advised me to recover this £1000 from my credit card company under something called a Section 75D. Then maybe the company is willing to talk. Great idea.

Why not claim the whole lot back from the card company not just the £1000?

[Steamerpoint]

I suggest if you take the car back to them (4 hours ? I would only ever buy a car from a place within 20 minutes of my house!) - they will 'capture' it - maybe carry out some repairs (to what standard is anyone's guess...and on what time scale ...) - and refuse to release the car again till you pay the bill - and perhaps an ever increasing 'storage' charge of goodness knows how much. So beware - I would NOT take the car back to them..
As for the diff swap - 'cleaning oil off the shoes' ?? Seriously ?? If shoes have oil on them - they are scrap... And an hour to fill oil - at your expense ?? They've 'seen you coming'.... Avoid avoid....

I agree, it's a long way to go to be messed about and possession is nine tenths of the law.

In fairness, if I get the £1000 back, (even if I have to give them £250 of this back) I feel the car is worth keeping.
I would get the chassis sorted out and worry about the drivers door and passenger door pillar next year.
A couple of grand, thereabouts for a 1956 Series II, even in that condition seems fair to me.

I am not sure if the oil escaped from the half shafts onto the shoes when he took it apart or whether the oil had been seeping past the gaskets for a while before he started. I know that the drivers side has an oil seal channel to fit a 3 inch diameter O ring seal, but the passenger side is from the earlier models and doesn't have the O ring channel. This relies on the gasket alone.

Why not claim the whole lot back from the card company not just the £1000?

Can I do that? I thought I could only claim the amount I actually put onto the credit card?

[bmcecosse]

I'm sure it will just be the £1000 - but they won't just hand it back because the car is seemingly 'not as advertised'... The car would need to be returned to the vendor... Frankly - if you can somehow get some money back from the vendor - and then fix the car as you go along, it's probably the only route open to you. You can try and get a CCJ against them - but did you inspect the car thoroughly before buying? Sales 'puff' is just that...and always to be taken with a huge shovel of salt...

[MrIan]

You can only claim back/reverse what went on your card. I feel this is going to end up getting nasty with a nice mog in the middle.
Obviously you want it sorting and the garage are prepared to do this but more than likely on their terms ie by them at their repairers.
You obviously want the car repairing with replacement rails and panels.
The thing is though had it been patched up ok your diff changing garage maybe wouldn't have commented as the eyee bolt would be straight and there'd be no holes in the chassis.
It's a sticky situation and really all involved need to bend a bit and see the others point of view.
The main thing though is it needs sorting as it's a nice car.

[qwerty165]

You are entitiled to claim back all of the money spent, even if you only spend £1 on a card paying for something and pay for the rest in cash the card company is liable to refund you for the whole lot.

Section 75 offers protection for items or services valued £100 up to £30,000, of which at least part of the purchase was made with a credit card. Purchases under and over these thresholds cannot be considered. So, if you buy something for £500 but only pay £50 with a credit card, you would be protected for the full amount.

Taken from http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/card ... on-75.html

[MrIan]

You are entitiled to claim back all of the money spent, even if you only spend £1 on a card paying for something and pay for the rest in cash the card company is liable to refund you for the whole lot.

Section 75 offers protection for items or services valued £100 up to £30,000, of which at least part of the purchase was made with a credit card. Purchases under and over these thresholds cannot be considered. So, if you buy something for £500 but only pay £50 with a credit card, you would be protected for the full amount.

Taken from http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/card ... on-75.html

Not looked at the link but i'm sure all the garage has to do is offer to repair the car (as they have done) for this not to be a viable route. Might be worth a look mind you but I doubt for one min that the credit card company knowing the garage have offered to sort it would play ball and refund the total amount.
Plus then where do people stand? does the credit card company then chase the garage for the money or does the garage owner end up with the money and the car returned ?
Credit card company end up owning the car ? then auction it off ?

Would be easier to just get some money back off of the garage (ie the £1000 on the card) and put that towards the repair when it's all blown over.

[Mark Wilson]

but did you inspect the car thoroughly before buying? Sales 'puff' is just that...and always to be taken with a huge shovel of salt...

Can't speak for the situation in Scotland, Roy, but under English law there is no obligation on the vendor to inspect thoroughly and the purchaser is entitled to rely on the claims made by the vendor - providing it is a trade sale, and no exclusions such as "sold as seen" have been made.

I've just looked at the video and this is so clearly not of saleable quality that I would employ a solicitor to review the information posted on here and then write a letter to the vendor telling him that a claim is to be lodged in court unless the purchase fee is repaid in full, plus legal costs and that the car is available for inspection or for collection by them once the refund is obtained. I would, however, take up a credit reference on the vendor to make sure that they aren't likely to go under before spending much on legal fees. The courts are weighted towards the interests of purchasers and if this is a properly run business they will realise that it isn't worth the cost of contesting this. Using a solicitor should scare them into action.

Mark

[Steamerpoint]

Well I have just received this email from the credit card company:

Thank you for your e-mail.

I can confirm that if your claim is accepted you are entitled to claim for the full purchase price as you paid part of it using your Santander credit card.

I have arranged for your claim to be raised and for a letter to be sent to confirm this.

Please allow up to 8 weeks for a decision to be reached.

Technically, according to Trading Standards, I am entitled to reject the car under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 on the basis of their ebay advertisement. It is clearly false especially the two words "No Rust". Because I can claim a full refund, which they don't want to give, my next option is to ask for compensation. I do not need to allow them the chance to repair it. This is what they want to do because it will be cheaper for them, but the law does not demand that I offer this to them.

I have asked for a full refund or £750 in compensation, which nearly covers half of the £1620 welding costs. I feel that this is a fair and reasonable offer, so the choice is theirs. Option 1 or option 2. As I am entitled to a full refund, I am quite happy to go down this route if they do not agree to the compensation.

I am just not sure what happens if I am refunded the full amount. At that point the dealer will certainly be on the phone asking for the car back or part of the full amount I paid him.

Don't get me wrong, it is a nice pretty car and one I am happy to keep and even cover the cost of some of the repairs, but I cannot accept that a dealer has lied to me to make a sale and then expects me to accept this. His comment saying "we do not accept refunds" makes me mad. It's not up to him. He needs to obey the trading laws of this country and will lose a court case if it goes that far! He probably thinks that customers will just accept his business policy and go away quietly. Normally I am a placid person and might just take these things on the chin, but he was a little too aggressive this morning and when he put the phone down on me, I decided to call Trading Standards for advice.

Also, if you are buying from a dealer things are different. I am not a motor mechanic and know little about classic cars or Morris Minors. In the eyes of the law I am not expected to know anything and when a dealer informs you of it's condition, he is liable if it turns out to be otherwise. The old adage, "Buyer beware" does not apply when buying a car from a dealer unless he clearly points out the problems and asks the buyer to sign to accept he has informed you. A reasonable short time period also applies of course. I couldn't go back many months after buying it with problems, but 3-weeks or even a month later is acceptable.

I have just got back from the post office after sending them a vehicle rejection letter and a copy of my email to them yesterday, which was sent recorded delivery. Advice given by Trading Standards to get the ball rolling.

My 16 year old son will be gutted though if the car does go back. He loves it and wants me to drive him to the School Prom in it, in a few months! If this happens, I might send out a plea to other Morris Minor owners in the area to drive him in one!

[bmcecosse]

Well - I wish you well with it! Did you buy the car from a Limited Company - or from a 'Dealer' - or from an individual ? What does your receipt show? I'm amazed Santander will be 'het' for the full amount - but that does indeed seem to be the case.. 8 weeks is a long time to wait - to possibly get a refusal due to some wriggle-out clause.

[Steamerpoint]

Well - I wish you well with it! Did you buy the car from a Limited Company - or from a 'Dealer' - or from an individual ? What does your receipt show? I'm amazed Santander will be 'het' for the full amount - but that does indeed seem to be the case.. 8 weeks is a long time to wait - to possibly get a refusal due to some wriggle-out clause.

Yes the dealer is a limited company.

If I do get a full refund, then I have the money and the car. Nice position to be in. I am a fair bloke though and will either get the car back to them or send them the difference minus some compensation.

Not sure how Santander can wriggle out of it to be fair. It appears to be an open and shut case, but lets see what happens!

[MrIan]

Just see what the next move is on their part.
I doubt for a second you will end up with a refund and the car as it'll either get taken by the card company to recover costs or if the dealer refunds you he will have it back. Mind you it is then on his back to come and collect it by a set date I think.

[bmcecosse]

You won't end up with both....and beware the 'Limited Company' going in to administration.....