Help! Tie bar won't line up.

[rogerowen]

I'm re-assembling suspension after fitting new outer lower pin, and now the hole in the tie bar won't line up with the hole in the fork to the lower arm. I guess I can undo the front end of the bar at the chassis to adjust - but I'm wondering how it's got out of line? should there be some tension on the lower wishbone from the tie bar? I've tried to encouage the fork bolt in - but it's just stuffing the thread Any guidance - please?

[mike.perry]

Leave the tie bar bracket loose to swivel and jack the lower suspension arm up until you can slide/tap the tie bar into position then tap a taper punch through the bracket and bar to line up the holes before fitting the vertical bolt. If necessary slacken off the front of the tie bar.

[rogerowen]

Leave the tie bar bracket loose to swivel and jack the lower suspension arm up until you can slide/tap the tie bar into position then tap a taper punch through the bracket and bar to line up the holes before fitting the vertical bolt. If necessary slacken off the front of the tie bar.

Top Man!!! Took a while to find the right wedge - but it's home!!! You must be an engineer

[bmcecosse]

Yes - a 'loose' assembly is always wise - then tighten it all up once everything is in place - with the weight of the car on the suspension....

[les]

If you've been having issues with your camber, as I recall you mentioning, that may cause the tie bar to be difficult to align, and possibly putting the lower arm under strain. Did you solve the camber problem?

[rogerowen]

If you've been having issues with your camber, as I recall you mentioning, that may cause the tie bar to be difficult to align, and possibly putting the lower arm under strain. Did you solve the camber problem?

Camber issue was on the O/S, Tie bar problem on N/S. Not sure if camber problem still present, hope to finnish suspension rebuild tomorrow. Everything is loosely assembled for final torqueing off jack. Fingers crossed. Can't seem to fit A/R bar at the moment - seems wider than the bush cups - thinking of pulling it in with a strop to fit.

[les]

Good luck with it all but don't be too keen on assembling things under tension!

[bmcecosse]

ARB is not a good idea anyway - just adds even more understeer - unless it is of course part of a complete suspension upgrade package. It does sound as if there are some serious alignment problems on that car.....

[rogerowen]

ARB is not a good idea anyway - just adds even more understeer - unless it is of course part of a complete suspension upgrade package. It does sound as if there are some serious alignment problems on that car.....

Advice accepted - looks like a right pain to fit anyway, and I have noticed very little difference since the ARB has been off

[bmcecosse]

It's all about balance - if I fitted one at the front I would also want one on the rear, and probably stiffer rear springs and of course some negative camber on the front wheels. And decent wheels with wider tyres!

[rogerowen]

Aha! Just found out why I was having trouble trying to fit the Anti Roll Bar. Saw this picture for a car for sale and realise that the bar goes a fair way into the bushes - which explains why it seemed too wide. I would have a problem fitting this too the N/S as there is a lot of back tension of the tie bar. O/S lines up without problem. I'm now questioning whether there should be tension at the tie bar - and there is mention in these ARB fitting instructions that say the hole should line up easily [frame][/frame]

[ianmack]

I had trouble fitting one of mine. Turned out the front bracket was bent, not enough to be obvious, just enough to be awkward. CCured with large hammer.

[rogerowen]

Big flipping hammer can often compensate for hours of gentle pondering!

[philthehill]

One of the problems with the Owen Burton anti-roll bar is that there is no real articulation between the anti-roll bar and the lower suspension arm.
The only articulation is in the bush that fits over the wasted rear end of the torsion bar.
Because the link between the torsion bar and the lower suspension arm (replacing the tie rod bolt Part No: AAA2084 or 21G4009) is solid the torsion bar when flexing is supposed to move laterally through the bush and that is why there is quite a lot of the anti roll bar to the rear of the bush to prevent it all coming apart. The bush should be free to move laterally over the anti-roll bar so putting some silicon or appropriate lubricant on the bush/anti-roll bar will do no harm.
When the suspension of the Minor goes down the track narrows and that is why the anti-roll bar will appear to be too wide especially when the car is suspended on a jack with the suspension free.
The best way to get it to fit is to fit it all loose then lower the car to the ground and tighten it all up with the suspension in its normal ride position.
A properly engineered anti-roll bar should have full articulation between the anti-roll bar and the lower suspension arm. Minor Mania used to sell a fully articulated and rose jointed anti-roll bar but unfortunately is no longer available.
The 14.2 mm diameter anti-roll bar fitted to my Minor and which was fitted in the late 1960s has articulation at both ends of the link between the anti-roll bar and lower suspension arm.
Anti-roll bars usually come in different diameters so you can tune the anti roll bar to the car and its suspension. Again Unfortunately and as far as I am aware (and happy to be corrected) currently there is only one anti-roll bar available for the Minor and that is the Owen Burton one.
As I said above the diameter of the anti-roll bar fitted to my Minor is only 14.2mm and that works well for me.

[jagnut66]

Hi 'Philthehill',
Do you have any pictures of your anti-roll bar and / or the rose jointed one you mention (unless they virtually one in the same??), as I've seen the one currently available fitted to cars and, on top of the fact I've heard they're not that good from a motoring magazine article I read some time ago, they seem to stick out like a sore thumb and spoil the look of the front of the Moggy.
I'd like to see what an alternative version, that works better, looks like.
Like the Britax inertia reel seatbelts I recently found, I'm quite happy to wait for one of these to turn up for sale and a picture(s) would give me a better idea of what I would be looking for.
Many thanks,
Mike.

[philthehill]

Attached is a photo of the anti-roll bar with original fittings at the end of the roll bar and as fitted to my Minor.
The tie rod bolt is removed and a adapter pin is inserted. The other end of the adapter pin has a hole drilled through it and a 'U' shaped bracket attached.
A pin goes through the 'U' shaped bracket/adapter pin and the two rubber bushes which are fitted either side of the eye on the end of the anti-roll bar. The rubber bushes are held in place by two cupped washers which clamp the rubber bushes to the ant-roll bar.
The arrangement above allows the anti-roll bar to move through at least two planes whilst not perfect is better at articulation than the Owen Burton mounting/link.
The adapter pin can be easily turned to suit which plane you would like the 'U' shaped bracket to move through.
When the suspension is sat its normal operating position the adapter pin is near vertical.
Subsequently I have improved the articulation at the end of the anti-roll bar by using modified mk3 Astra anti roll bar links but that does entail a lot more work and making mounting brackets and longer suspension pins.
You are right that the anti-roll bar does show at the front of the car but if you want an anti-roll bar that is the price you have to pay.
An anti-roll bar should be fitted as part of a suspension upgrade and not just fitted and forgotten about as it needs to interact with the rest of the suspension.
I doubt that you will come across a anti-roll bar like mine now as it was purchased many years ago from one of the few tuning firms that produced anti-roll bars for Minors. I cannot remember the manufacturer but have a feeling it was manufactured by Derrington.
I am certain that the Owen Burton anti-roll bar could be converted to full rose jointed operation at its outer end with a bit of work.[frame][/frame]

[philthehill]

The anti-roll bar in action[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

Fantastic picture - and look at the twist on that bar!! Looks like it could use a wee bit more negative camber......

[philthehill]

Now that I have a pair of Minor Mania negative camber eye bolts (no longer available unfortunately) I can introduce more camber into the front suspension.
The Minor Mania eye bolt allows for negative camber of at least 4 degrees and possibly more to be introduced.
The problem with the standard Minor eye bolts is that you are limited by the length of the shaft of the eye bolt where it passes through the chassis leg. There must be sufficient thread on the inner end of the eye bolt to hold and secure the nut.
Increasing the distanced between the eye of the eye bolt and chassis leg will put more strain on the area around the eye bolt mounting and a suitable plate inserted between the eye bolt and chassis leg to spread the load and if possible on the inner side of the chassis leg as well
Adjustable tie bars are required for extreme camber (those fitted to my Minor are part Minor part Mini mix and match) so as not to upset the caster because as you push the eye bolt away from the chassis leg the distance between the tie bar lug on the front of the lower suspension arm and the front tie bar increases and if you are able to bolt it all up with the standard tie bar it will put extra loading on the tie bar chassis mounting bracket and tie bar rubber bushes and increase the camber more than the recommended 3 degrees for a standard Minor.
You cannot do just one thing to the front suspension as it can and will do alter everything else so everything has to be taken into account and adjusted accordingly. Modifying the Minor front suspension has to be done in the round.

[rogerowen]

Now that I have a pair of Minor Mania negative camber eye bolts (no longer available unfortunately) I can introduce more camber into the front suspension.
The Minor Mania eye bolt allows for negative camber of at least 4 degrees and possibly more to be introduced.
The problem with the standard Minor eye bolts is that you are limited by the length of the shaft of the eye bolt where it passes through the chassis leg. There must be sufficient thread on the inner end of the eye bolt to hold and secure the nut.
Increasing the distanced between the eye of the eye bolt and chassis leg will put more strain on the area around the eye bolt mounting and a suitable plate inserted between the eye bolt and chassis leg to spread the load and if possible on the inner side of the chassis leg as well
Adjustable tie bars are required for extreme camber (those fitted to my Minor are part Minor part Mini mix and match) so as not to upset the caster because as you push the eye bolt away from the chassis leg the distance between the tie bar lug on the front of the lower suspension arm and the front tie bar increases and if you are able to bolt it all up with the standard tie bar it will put extra loading on the tie bar chassis mounting bracket and tie bar rubber bushes and increase the camber more than the recommended 3 degrees for a standard Minor.
You cannot do just one thing to the front suspension as it can and will do alter everything else so everything has to be taken into account and adjusted accordingly. Modifying the Minor front suspension has to be done in the round.

Can I gleam from this - that for my very bog standard set up (ARB now not fitted) -should I be looking to achieve an easy line up of tie bar pin hole (with car on the ground), and not have to force the bar back towards the front to align??