Something not right with front suspension.

[ferrit]

Phil,

Mines used on the muddy roads of Cumbria. I used to live in Windermere but am now the other side of the M6 where prices are more reasonable.


MarkyB,

Thanks for pointing me in direction of the pdf

Bmcecosse

There’s no obvious damage, in fact every thing looks very solid underneath. I will be checking some diagonals etc when I get the opportunity.

[philthehill]

ferrit
Always tried to keep away from Windermere, too many people there in the summer.
My Minor has in the past competed at Barbon Manor Speed Hill climb which is on your side of the M6.
Phil

[kennatt]

Which would surely give real problems connecting the tie-rod ?

Not exactly so,ie fit the new leg, connect up the tie rod to the bottom arm ANDfront tie rod bracket,clamp the front bracket to the new leg and weld it on.Bearing in mind that the tracking can be sorted via the track rod ends. It may be worth measuring both side between a common point on the chassis to the bottom trunnion.

[IslipMinor]

It does look wrong, but the earlier reference in this thread to 'king pin inclination' is not what the picture is showing, the KPI is as seen from the front of the car and should be 7 1/2° for the later cars.

Looking from the side, as in the picture, the rearwards inclination is the 'caster angle' and is supposed to be 3° - it looks very much more than that.

I wonder if the spacer between the tie rod and the lower suspension arm is missing? With all Minors, except the very early cars with the screwed type top link, there should be a spacer about 6mm thick as in the diagram below:
[frame][/frame]
Is the washer Pt. No. 183470-2 or something similar there?

The other place to check is at the front of the tie rod - are the bushes fitted correctly? The picture shows how they should be assembled:
[frame][/frame]
Looking from the front, down the length of the torsion bar from behind the front suspension to the rear-crossmember, does the torsion bar look straight, or does is have a bend in it anywhere? I'm not looking for damage to the bar, but if there is excessive caster angle, the torsion bar will get misshapen to accommodate lower arm being pulled forward at the outer end more than it should be.

A little more than 3°caster is no bad thing, as it helps greatly with the straight-running characteristics of the car, but at the expense of heavier steering when not moving.

[ferrit]

The additional washer Pt. No. 183470-2 is on the tie rod fork end, but there is no sign of a u washer Pt. No. 183471-2 on the eye bolts. The torsion bar look perfectly straight.

[IslipMinor]

The 'U' washer is not a good thing, just allows water into the chassis leg tube and rots it away! If the eye bolt needs spacing out use solid washers to do it. The only problem is that they need to be 9/16" ID, which is not exactly a standard size.

What about the front bushes, are they in place as they should be?

[ferrit]

Ive replaced the front bushes for new rubber ones. Do you know what thickness the U washer should be?

[IslipMinor]

About 3mm or 1/8". Each 1/8" alters the camber by ~1°. The very early Minors had 0° camber, but after that they are 1° positive camber. The 'U' spacer was introduced at the same time as the rubber-bushed top links to correct some of the camber angle change.

With radial ply tyres, spacing the lower arm out a bit to give 0°, or even a hint of -ve camber, will improve the steering response.

Also, as the suspension is lowered the camber becomes more and more positive, so again it is necessary to space the eye bolt out, but there is a limit, as the nut on the inside of the chassis rail must have a spring washer and enough thread to provide 'full engagement' of the nut. Eventually a new eye bolt that moves the pivot point out around 10mm is required.

[philthehill]

Richard
I have amended my posts above to make it clearer that the kin pin inclination was being measured in the fore and aft position and on my Minor it was spot on 3 degrees. You are right in that angle is known as the Caster angle.
Fortunately I have fitted adjustable tie rods which allows me to adjust the king pin fore and aft inclination (caster angle).
I agree that the 'U' shaped washer is a dirt trap if fitted open to the top but it is not so bad if open to the bottom.
You cannot rely on both sides as regards the camber being the same. When my negative camber was being measured with a Dunlop caster/camber gauge after fitting spacers it was found that one side had to have an additional spacer fitted to bring both sides to the same negative camber reading.
Also the car was loaded on the drivers side with a weight equivalent to my weight to ensure that the car was sat level (with no driver the car sits very slightly higher on the drivers side).
After a while the Minor front suspension tends to settle especially on the drivers side and that settlement needs to be taken into consideration when setting the caster/camber.

[IslipMinor]

Phil,

Might be worth experimenting with the caster angle by using the adjustable tie rods. Increased caster gives a sharper 'turn in', better straight running, but heavier steering when parking and very low speed manoeuvring (the last two are probably not desperately relevant to hill climbing!).

I was surprised, after fitting the new, extended eye bolts to give around 1° negative camber, which by pushing out the lower arm more gives an extra 1° caster as well with fixed tie rods, how much sharper the steering felt going into a corner. I could not believe that it was all down to camber angle, until I read that increasing caster has a significant effect on 'turn-in'.

[philthehill]

Richard
Thanks for the info.
Some time ago I purchased a pair of Minor Mania negative camber eye bolts (unfortunately no longer available) which are already to fit. They come with different thickness spacers so with the addition of adjustable tie rods I will be able to get the camber/caster just right.
Phil

[bmcecosse]

Look at any modern car when parked on full lock... The castor angle forces the 'outside' wheel on to heavy negative camber on lock - even though it will be pretty much vertical in the straight ahead position. The inside wheel will be showing some positive camber too. And of course - this (and wider/low profile tyres) is the reason all moderns have some form of power assisted steering. So there is a double advantage when adding negative to a Minor - the side effect of increasing the castor adds even more negative on lock!

[ferrit]

UPDATE

Well thanks for all your help everybody.

I’ve finally had a chance to spend some time on the car. I have fitted new trunnions and bushes. I also inserted the “U” washer on the eye bolts. On the left hand side its made everything look great but when its fitted on the right hand side it gives it a ridicules amount of negative camber so I removed it and things looks better. It still drives all right and the tracking seems ok so I’m going to live with it. It needs some more experienced eyes to have a look at it.

[bmcecosse]

Well done -after all that work - you would need to reset the tracking..... and slabber that 'U' washer with grease to keep the water out.....

[ferrit]

Thanks,

I checked the tracking with a couple of straight edges clamped to the break drums with the jacks under the lower suspension arms so the weight of the car was on them and it is toeing in 3mm. Can only think it must have been wrong before I started, never though to check it before I did the work. I put plenty of grease every where I thought water might try and ingress and I used a normal washer as I had them to hand for the ‘u’ washer.

[bmcecosse]

Well done !

[alexmcguffie]

The main reason for power steering is the weight of modern cars - mostly twice the weight of a Minor. Some modern cars don't have power steering because they are light.

[bmcecosse]

Some don't ?? Which ones ??? But yes = they are heavy - and they have wide/grippy tyres - unlike a Minor.....

[David W.]

I have to adjust my camber. What is the diameter of the eye bolt? I can find washers locally, but I'd like to have them at hand before energizing the wrenches.
David

[philthehill]

The diameter of the eye bolt where it goes through the front chassis leg is 11/16".
Instead of plain washers I would advise fitting a plate or plates (2 3/4" L x 2" H) with a 11/16" hole through the centre to spread the load around the chassis leg in the area of the eye bolt. The eye bolt centre is off set in the plate and is 7/8" from the top edge of the plate. Thickness of the plate will determines the camber.
When packing out the eye bolt make sure that you have sufficient thread left for the nut that fits on the inner end of the eye bolt and a couple of threads spare when the nut is fully home.