Hi guys, after a bit of help. Its not a moggy but my friends Austin Healey Sprite, but it does have an a series 1275 engine.
Yesterday she was towed home by the aa after total clutch failure! Engine out this evening and I was amazed to see all of the fingers bent Inwards!?
You can feel a lip on the edge of the bend on the fingers so the only thing I can think of is that the release bearing seized, rubbed on the fingers so much they got red hot and so soft they bent inwards?
Has anyone seen anything like this before and know why it could have happened? The release fork has a spring feel to it that constantly pushes against the bearing, is this correct to stop the release bearing rattling?
Total clutch failure!
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AndrewSkinner
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Total clutch failure!
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Here are the pics
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14202114156/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14038597458/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14202114156/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14038597458/
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Where is the plate that fits over the clutch release fingers and against which the carbon thrust presses? No sign of it in your pictures.
If a standard clutch assy has been fitted I would suggest that the plate has broken up and the bits passed out of the L/H clutch arm aperture (if it came adrift it would still be there as the gearbox first motion shaft passes through it and it would rattle like hell), the carbon thrust would then be torn apart by the fingers until only the metal remained. What remained of the thrust rubbing against the fingers overheated them and you have ended up where you are.
The hydraulic clutch release system does allow for wear of the clutch plate and carbon thrust (your springiness) but not that much wear.
If the carbon thrust been changed for a ball bearing type thrust that may account for the lack of plate on the fingers.
If it is a ball bearing type thrust it could be that the clutch master cylinder has a problem in that it held the thrust hard against the fingers, it overheated, seized and stopped turning and friction between it and the fingers overheated them resulting in the bent ones shown.
It may be worth looking in that case at the clutch master cylinder. There is no return valve fitted to the clutch master cylinder so what fluid is pushed out when the clutch pedal is pressed should return to the reservoir when the pedal is released. Has the clutch master cylinder had a new seal kit fitted recently?
There is very little to go wrong in the clutch slave cylinder but I would still check that for correct operation.
Where is the plate that fits over the clutch release fingers and against which the carbon thrust presses? No sign of it in your pictures.
If a standard clutch assy has been fitted I would suggest that the plate has broken up and the bits passed out of the L/H clutch arm aperture (if it came adrift it would still be there as the gearbox first motion shaft passes through it and it would rattle like hell), the carbon thrust would then be torn apart by the fingers until only the metal remained. What remained of the thrust rubbing against the fingers overheated them and you have ended up where you are.
The hydraulic clutch release system does allow for wear of the clutch plate and carbon thrust (your springiness) but not that much wear.
If the carbon thrust been changed for a ball bearing type thrust that may account for the lack of plate on the fingers.
If it is a ball bearing type thrust it could be that the clutch master cylinder has a problem in that it held the thrust hard against the fingers, it overheated, seized and stopped turning and friction between it and the fingers overheated them resulting in the bent ones shown.
It may be worth looking in that case at the clutch master cylinder. There is no return valve fitted to the clutch master cylinder so what fluid is pushed out when the clutch pedal is pressed should return to the reservoir when the pedal is released. Has the clutch master cylinder had a new seal kit fitted recently?
There is very little to go wrong in the clutch slave cylinder but I would still check that for correct operation.
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Hi Phil,
Thanks for taking the time to reply!
Ok so it a carbon thrust bearing but no sign of any plate that sits over the fingers? Just to make it clear the two halves of the carbon thrust bearing is there (although look a bit rough) should there be an extra plate between the thrust bearing halves and the fingers?
If it is a carbon thrust bearing should the release fork be keeping a constant pressure on it? The slave looks relatively new and the chap who she bought it off 'said' it had had a new clutch
Thanks for taking the time to reply!
Ok so it a carbon thrust bearing but no sign of any plate that sits over the fingers? Just to make it clear the two halves of the carbon thrust bearing is there (although look a bit rough) should there be an extra plate between the thrust bearing halves and the fingers?
If it is a carbon thrust bearing should the release fork be keeping a constant pressure on it? The slave looks relatively new and the chap who she bought it off 'said' it had had a new clutch
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Matt
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Yup thats had it 
Spridgets (A series ones anyway) all came with the carbon thrust bearing and should have the flat bit on the diapragm shown in Les' picture above. My guess is that the wrong clutch was fitted, prematurely wearing the carbon release bearing. This then wore down to the metal and the metal on metal friction got the fingers hot enough to bend - you can see the discolouration in the picture
Spridgets (A series ones anyway) all came with the carbon thrust bearing and should have the flat bit on the diapragm shown in Les' picture above. My guess is that the wrong clutch was fitted, prematurely wearing the carbon release bearing. This then wore down to the metal and the metal on metal friction got the fingers hot enough to bend - you can see the discolouration in the picture
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Are you completely sure that it is a carbon thrust and not a ball race thrust.
Looking again closely at the photo it looks similar to the ball race thrust fitted to my Minor clutch release arm. See :- http://www.petermayengineering.co.uk/sp ... oducts.htm item 5.6 for example.
The uprated clutch ball thrust race does not require the carbon thrust pressure plate as the outer part of the ball race clutch thrust turns with the clutch fingers. I know this because fitting a uprated diaphragm clutch (without the thrust pad) with ball race thrust was one of the first things I did when fitting the 1275cc Midget engine to my Minor.
Because of the uncertainty over whether it was a carbon or ball race thrust in my post above I mentioned both possible scenarios. If it does turn out to be a ball race thrust it has got to be the hydraulics. The reason I asked as to whether the clutch master cylinder had had a recent seal kit fitted was that if the recuperating valve from the brake master cylinder had been fitted by mistake to the clutch master cylinder (easily done as the seals are similar) there would be line pressure and the thrust would be permanently against the clutch thrust plate/fingers which would lead to overheating of the thrust and failure. I have just had to sort out a neighbours MG clutch master cylinder with a similar problem; but luckily he did not get so far as to get it all together and have it fail.
The carbon thrust or ball race thrust will be kept just off the thrust plate or fingers by the returning fluid to the reservoir and pressure from the clutch thrust/fingers in a similar manner to the disc brakes when fitted to a Minor where you have to remove the recuperation valve otherwise the pad are pressing hard on the disc at all times.
Are you completely sure that it is a carbon thrust and not a ball race thrust.
Looking again closely at the photo it looks similar to the ball race thrust fitted to my Minor clutch release arm. See :- http://www.petermayengineering.co.uk/sp ... oducts.htm item 5.6 for example.
The uprated clutch ball thrust race does not require the carbon thrust pressure plate as the outer part of the ball race clutch thrust turns with the clutch fingers. I know this because fitting a uprated diaphragm clutch (without the thrust pad) with ball race thrust was one of the first things I did when fitting the 1275cc Midget engine to my Minor.
Because of the uncertainty over whether it was a carbon or ball race thrust in my post above I mentioned both possible scenarios. If it does turn out to be a ball race thrust it has got to be the hydraulics. The reason I asked as to whether the clutch master cylinder had had a recent seal kit fitted was that if the recuperating valve from the brake master cylinder had been fitted by mistake to the clutch master cylinder (easily done as the seals are similar) there would be line pressure and the thrust would be permanently against the clutch thrust plate/fingers which would lead to overheating of the thrust and failure. I have just had to sort out a neighbours MG clutch master cylinder with a similar problem; but luckily he did not get so far as to get it all together and have it fail.
The carbon thrust or ball race thrust will be kept just off the thrust plate or fingers by the returning fluid to the reservoir and pressure from the clutch thrust/fingers in a similar manner to the disc brakes when fitted to a Minor where you have to remove the recuperation valve otherwise the pad are pressing hard on the disc at all times.
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Thank you for all your help and advice guys!
Ok so its definitely a carbon thrust plate as the two halves are still there. However if I push the clutch fork back to the released position (As if you were driving along) and then let go, it slowly springs back to gently put a bit of pressure on the clutch. Am I correct in saying this set up is ONLY to be used when you have a bearing release and NOT a carbon?
If I replace this with another clutch kit that has a carbon thrust plate how do I change the master cylinder to stop pushing the fork back into the clutch?
Ok so its definitely a carbon thrust plate as the two halves are still there. However if I push the clutch fork back to the released position (As if you were driving along) and then let go, it slowly springs back to gently put a bit of pressure on the clutch. Am I correct in saying this set up is ONLY to be used when you have a bearing release and NOT a carbon?
If I replace this with another clutch kit that has a carbon thrust plate how do I change the master cylinder to stop pushing the fork back into the clutch?
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
I am still convinced that the thrust is a ball roller thrust because the remains look like a ball roller thrust and if there are two parts it cannot be a carbon thrust as there are no remains of carbon on the thrust only metal and the centre is exactly the same as the one fitted to my Minor and you can see the original metal of the carbon thrust has not been touched. The ball roller thrust uses the original carbon thrust housing without the carbon and has a ball roller thrust bearing fitted instead. I will try and find my spare ball roller thrust and post a photo on here. Whilst it looks like you are going to fit a standard carbon thrust I would appreciate a photo of the damaged thrust to satisfy my curiosity. If you fit a standard clutch you will need the a clutch cover with a thrust pad as per Les's photo.
Yes without the thrust pad only a ball roller thrust can be fitted.
The carbon thrust should not have any pressure on the pressure plate thrust pad when fitted.
The only way to check and see if a recuperation valve has been fitted or not is to strip the clutch master cylinder and examine.
My advice is to strip the clutch master cylinder what ever you do and see what seals are fitted as you could end up with the same problem in a few miles.
I am still convinced that the thrust is a ball roller thrust because the remains look like a ball roller thrust and if there are two parts it cannot be a carbon thrust as there are no remains of carbon on the thrust only metal and the centre is exactly the same as the one fitted to my Minor and you can see the original metal of the carbon thrust has not been touched. The ball roller thrust uses the original carbon thrust housing without the carbon and has a ball roller thrust bearing fitted instead. I will try and find my spare ball roller thrust and post a photo on here. Whilst it looks like you are going to fit a standard carbon thrust I would appreciate a photo of the damaged thrust to satisfy my curiosity. If you fit a standard clutch you will need the a clutch cover with a thrust pad as per Les's photo.
Yes without the thrust pad only a ball roller thrust can be fitted.
The carbon thrust should not have any pressure on the pressure plate thrust pad when fitted.
The only way to check and see if a recuperation valve has been fitted or not is to strip the clutch master cylinder and examine.
My advice is to strip the clutch master cylinder what ever you do and see what seals are fitted as you could end up with the same problem in a few miles.
Last edited by philthehill on Wed May 21, 2014 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Hi Phil,
I will get some more pictures tonight so we can find out whats up. Its hard to explain but there are two parts still on the fork. Although the one half looks exactly like what should be on the clutch fingers (a large round block with three flats) but this is clearly badly damaged/worn and no fixed to the fingers!
Cheers
I will get some more pictures tonight so we can find out whats up. Its hard to explain but there are two parts still on the fork. Although the one half looks exactly like what should be on the clutch fingers (a large round block with three flats) but this is clearly badly damaged/worn and no fixed to the fingers!
Cheers
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Thanks for coming back to me.
What you have described attached to the remains of the thrust appears to be the carbon thrust plate which should be attached to the clutch cover.
Look forward to seeing your photos.
Phil
Thanks for coming back to me.
What you have described attached to the remains of the thrust appears to be the carbon thrust plate which should be attached to the clutch cover.
Look forward to seeing your photos.
Phil
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Ok so as promised here are the extra photos.
It has a carbon thrust bearing that has worn right down and then the back plate to the thrust bearing has started to rub onto the fingers.
SO.... verdict, has someone fitted a carbon release bearing to what should be a roller bearing master cylinder?
If I order a new clutch tonight I need a kit with a roller bearing yeah?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14053294637/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14237630852/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14239885985/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14260077643/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14053260409/
It has a carbon thrust bearing that has worn right down and then the back plate to the thrust bearing has started to rub onto the fingers.
SO.... verdict, has someone fitted a carbon release bearing to what should be a roller bearing master cylinder?
If I order a new clutch tonight I need a kit with a roller bearing yeah?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14053294637/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14237630852/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14239885985/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14260077643/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22759412@N07/14053260409/
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Many thanks for the photos, things are much clearer now.
The parts that have been fitted to the clutch release mechanism/clutch pressure plate are correct and there has been no miss match of parts i.e roller ball release thrust only that unfortunately the clutch release bearing has been allowed to wear to the condition you now find it in.
I consider that you are right in that the carbon thrust wore right down to the backing metal/holder of the carbon thrust; the metal to metal contact caused a heat fusion between the metal/holder of the carbon thrust and the metal of the clutch cover thrust plate which then tore out the carbon thrust plate and away from the fingers which in turn heated up the fingers and the result was the failure of the fingers and clutch.
It must have made a terrible noise even before the total failure. Did not anyone notice or hear the noise/squeal of metal on metal and stop to investigate?
If you fit a new original spec MG Midget/Sprite 1275cc clutch assy you only need the clutch cover Pt No: GCC115, the clutch plate Pt No: GCP212 and the carbon thrust Pt No: GRB107.
I would also replace the thrust retaining clips Pt No: 13H782 Qty 2 as they most likely to have lost their temper with all that heat.
You DO NOT need a roller ball release bearing if using original spec parts.
I would still strip and examine the clutch master cylinder though because I personally would not be happy until I knew that there was no recuperating valve fitted and the seals and piston were not sticking.
The seal kit for the clutch master cylinder could be either Pt No: 8G8730 or Pt No: BAU1252 dependent upon the age of the car as the clutch master cylinder changed during the production run from Pt No: BHA4615 (early 1275) to AAU2298 (later 1275) and which replaced the early clutch master cylinder. So even more need to check the seals fitted to the clutch master cylinder are the right ones
Best of luck with the repairs
Phil
Many thanks for the photos, things are much clearer now.
The parts that have been fitted to the clutch release mechanism/clutch pressure plate are correct and there has been no miss match of parts i.e roller ball release thrust only that unfortunately the clutch release bearing has been allowed to wear to the condition you now find it in.
I consider that you are right in that the carbon thrust wore right down to the backing metal/holder of the carbon thrust; the metal to metal contact caused a heat fusion between the metal/holder of the carbon thrust and the metal of the clutch cover thrust plate which then tore out the carbon thrust plate and away from the fingers which in turn heated up the fingers and the result was the failure of the fingers and clutch.
It must have made a terrible noise even before the total failure. Did not anyone notice or hear the noise/squeal of metal on metal and stop to investigate?
If you fit a new original spec MG Midget/Sprite 1275cc clutch assy you only need the clutch cover Pt No: GCC115, the clutch plate Pt No: GCP212 and the carbon thrust Pt No: GRB107.
I would also replace the thrust retaining clips Pt No: 13H782 Qty 2 as they most likely to have lost their temper with all that heat.
You DO NOT need a roller ball release bearing if using original spec parts.
I would still strip and examine the clutch master cylinder though because I personally would not be happy until I knew that there was no recuperating valve fitted and the seals and piston were not sticking.
The seal kit for the clutch master cylinder could be either Pt No: 8G8730 or Pt No: BAU1252 dependent upon the age of the car as the clutch master cylinder changed during the production run from Pt No: BHA4615 (early 1275) to AAU2298 (later 1275) and which replaced the early clutch master cylinder. So even more need to check the seals fitted to the clutch master cylinder are the right ones
Best of luck with the repairs
Phil
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Hi Phil,
Thank you for all your help and very detailed replies. They really have been a huge huge help!
Lol you would have thought she heard it but she didnt say! She did however complain it smelt hot leading up to this and also that once she noticed smoke from the back of the engine. I couldnt find any clues that the engine was getting too hot but obviously now I know it was probably from the clutch.
The clutch fork definitely moves nicely and doesnt stick throughout the entire travel but does gently push back towards the clutch. Im guessing this means it has a recuperating valve fitted. When I take this apart, if I find a recuperating valve can I simply take it out?
Thanks again for all your help. Really appreciate you taking the time
Thank you for all your help and very detailed replies. They really have been a huge huge help!
Lol you would have thought she heard it but she didnt say! She did however complain it smelt hot leading up to this and also that once she noticed smoke from the back of the engine. I couldnt find any clues that the engine was getting too hot but obviously now I know it was probably from the clutch.
The clutch fork definitely moves nicely and doesnt stick throughout the entire travel but does gently push back towards the clutch. Im guessing this means it has a recuperating valve fitted. When I take this apart, if I find a recuperating valve can I simply take it out?
Thanks again for all your help. Really appreciate you taking the time
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Only happy to be of help.
If you do find a recuperating valve yes you can discard it. There should only be plain seals in there. See exploded diagram attached. The secondary seal item No: 7 is fitted in the grove on the outer end of the piston item No: 10 and not exactly as shown in the exploded diagram.
[frame]
[/frame] The second exploded diagram is of the brake master cylinder and the internals as you can see are very similar but of a different arrangement. You should not have item No: 11 which is the recuperating valve fitted in the clutch master cylinder only fitted in the brake master cylinder.
My neighbour as mentioned above fitted that valve and luckily he had not fitted the seals correctly so could not bleed the clutch and called on me for help. I stripped his clutch master cylinder and rebuilt it correctly and he was then able to bleed his clutch and get his MG back on the road.[frame]
[/frame]
Only happy to be of help.
If you do find a recuperating valve yes you can discard it. There should only be plain seals in there. See exploded diagram attached. The secondary seal item No: 7 is fitted in the grove on the outer end of the piston item No: 10 and not exactly as shown in the exploded diagram.
[frame]
My neighbour as mentioned above fitted that valve and luckily he had not fitted the seals correctly so could not bleed the clutch and called on me for help. I stripped his clutch master cylinder and rebuilt it correctly and he was then able to bleed his clutch and get his MG back on the road.[frame]
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Right ok, so had everything out over the weekend! New clutch fitted with a new carbon release bearing.
Completely stripped the master cylinder checked all the parts, cleaned and re-assembled and I did not find part no.11 (as per diagram) in the set up so I am assuming the system is set up correctly?
It would appear that the only pressure being applied to the thrust bearing is from the soft spring in the slave cylinder, is this correct? This would mean that there is very gentle pressure against the thrust bearing all the time?
I did try it without this spring in place and sure enough the fork releases away from the clutch but without the spring there is nothing to take up the slack in the system and therefore doesn't release the clutch?
Completely stripped the master cylinder checked all the parts, cleaned and re-assembled and I did not find part no.11 (as per diagram) in the set up so I am assuming the system is set up correctly?
It would appear that the only pressure being applied to the thrust bearing is from the soft spring in the slave cylinder, is this correct? This would mean that there is very gentle pressure against the thrust bearing all the time?
I did try it without this spring in place and sure enough the fork releases away from the clutch but without the spring there is nothing to take up the slack in the system and therefore doesn't release the clutch?
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Looks like you have cracked it .
Whilst you may have not found a re-couperation valve in the clutch master cylinder at least you now know what is in the cylinder bore and its condition.
Yes - the spring in the slave cylinder does allow take up of wear of the clutch plate and carbon thrust
This is were the roller ball release is better in that it may be against the clutch cover pressure plate/non pressure plate/fingers but it is not wearing all the time; the outer half just turns with the clutch cover if it turns at all.
Well done.
Let us know how it drives.
Phil
Looks like you have cracked it
.Whilst you may have not found a re-couperation valve in the clutch master cylinder at least you now know what is in the cylinder bore and its condition.
Yes - the spring in the slave cylinder does allow take up of wear of the clutch plate and carbon thrust
This is were the roller ball release is better in that it may be against the clutch cover pressure plate/non pressure plate/fingers but it is not wearing all the time; the outer half just turns with the clutch cover if it turns at all.
Well done.
Let us know how it drives.
Phil
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AndrewSkinner
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Well all back together, and guess what.... the clutch is dragging!! Aggghhhhh....... Just looking for the matches and fuel!
After having everything apart and reassembling plus bleeding twice it still drags! With the engine running you cannot get it into 1st, if your a bit rough with it you can get it to clunk into a gear with synchro but obviously not good. It does prove however that it is very close.
I've bled the system 3 times (With an easy-bleed kit) and cant see any air coming out from the slave cylinder. About 1/2 the travel is easy and feels like its not doing anything then the last 1/2 feels nice and firm but doesn't release the clutch?
What else could I try?
After having everything apart and reassembling plus bleeding twice it still drags! With the engine running you cannot get it into 1st, if your a bit rough with it you can get it to clunk into a gear with synchro but obviously not good. It does prove however that it is very close.
I've bled the system 3 times (With an easy-bleed kit) and cant see any air coming out from the slave cylinder. About 1/2 the travel is easy and feels like its not doing anything then the last 1/2 feels nice and firm but doesn't release the clutch?
What else could I try?
An age when roads were empty, machines were simple and every journey was an adventure!!
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philthehill
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Re: Total clutch failure!
Andrew
Thanks for letting us know even if the results were not what you wanted.
It may seem like a stupid question but you did put the centre plate in the right way round?
If you have used the correct carbon thrust (Pt No: GBR107) (there is a difference in the thickness of the carbon thrust between the 1098cc and 1275cc Midget/Sprite) and the clutch cover (Pt No: GCC115) all should be well.
Check that the push rod (Pt No: 13H3655) from the clutch slave cylinder has not been shortened or has wear in the eye and the clevis pin (Pt No: CLZ517) is ok.
I know that trying to bleed down hill is difficult but are you absolutely certain that you have got rid of all the air?
If all is as it should be you could try lengthening the slave push rod temporarily by putting a washer(s) (but be careful) between the push rod and the piston and see if there is an improvement.
Let us know how you get on.
Phil
Thanks for letting us know even if the results were not what you wanted.
It may seem like a stupid question but you did put the centre plate in the right way round?
If you have used the correct carbon thrust (Pt No: GBR107) (there is a difference in the thickness of the carbon thrust between the 1098cc and 1275cc Midget/Sprite) and the clutch cover (Pt No: GCC115) all should be well.
Check that the push rod (Pt No: 13H3655) from the clutch slave cylinder has not been shortened or has wear in the eye and the clevis pin (Pt No: CLZ517) is ok.
I know that trying to bleed down hill is difficult but are you absolutely certain that you have got rid of all the air?
If all is as it should be you could try lengthening the slave push rod temporarily by putting a washer(s) (but be careful) between the push rod and the piston and see if there is an improvement.
Let us know how you get on.
Phil