Camber

[morris-out]

Hi All, I would be grateful for some advice.
I am assembling the front suspension and would like to know if it’s possible to determine if the eyebolts require washers to give the correct camber without the wheels being on?
It would be quite a lot of work to assemble the suspension and then have dismantle everything in order to fit a washer.
Originally the car did not have washers or didn’t when I got it (hasn’t been on the road for 20 years).

Thanks

Dennis

[aupickup]

a bit of negative camber is good
3mm of washer equates to 1degree of camber
maybe a question of trial and error
some one else may know the answer without wheels on

[morris-out]

Ok thanks,
ESM seem to do a thick and a thin washer but they don't quote the dimensions, I will give them a bell and maybe take a chance and fit one, do I feel lucky?

Cheers

[bmcecosse]

Get two thick and two thin....... You will likely need them all... Wheels on to get the camber - and bounce the suspension up and down....no need to put every bolt/nut on for a quick check.

[morris-out]

Thanks, will do that.

ESM washers are: Thin.- 1.5 mm
Thick.- 3.0 mm

[philthehill]

Just because you put the same thickness of plates between the eye bolt and chassis leg does not mean that the camber will be the same either side. There is only one way to check that the camber is what you want and that is to measure the camber with a camber gauge. I checked the camber on my Minor with a professional Dunlop camber gauge and had to put an extra plate between the eye bolt and chassis on one side to get the same reading. My chassis legs are original and have never been knocked, damaged or affected by rust.
When increasing the negative camber you need to make the plates which are inserted between the eye bolt and chassis are as large as possible to spread the load. I have just made some new ones and they are 54mm H x 70mm W. The eye bolt hole in the spacer plate can be off sett to spread the load even better. When packing out the eye bolt to increase negative camber make sure that you have enough thread protruding through the chassis leg to accommodate the spring washer and the nut. If you can also put a large flat washer between the spring washer and the chassis leg so much the better as it spreads the load on the inside of the chassis leg.
Originally the Minor when fitted with the screwed type top trunnions only had washer drawing/Pt No: 127889-Z between the eye bolt and the chassis rail.
When the screwed top trunnion was replaced by the rubber bush type an extra washer drawing/Pt No: 183471-Z was also inserted between the eye bolt and the chassis leg. This was to maintain the correct steering geometry when fitting the rubber-bushed top links. Make sure that both washers are fitted if your car has rubber-bushed top links.
Also check the caster angle and tracking before use.

[bmcecosse]

Yes - my own car has 5/16" plates with offset holes - the idea of the washers was to be able to ring the changes - so perhaps 2 X thick one side and 2 X thin on the other.... Depends really if you want -ve camber - or simply to eliminate the standard +ve camber. Note that 'lowering' the Minor suspension increases the +ve camber - an issue that many who insist on running 'low' seem to be unaware of!

[alexmcguffie]

You have to check the camber with the car assembled and on level ground. Also, don't forget that the weight of a driver/passengers will make a difference on a relatively light car too. If you're normally the only person in the car on journeys then sit your 'twin' in the drivers seat when you take your measurements.

From distant memory I think I'm running 1 deg -ve which was done with 5mm of spacers. Initial turn-in is sharper with less understeer but then the standard profile tyres start to slip sooner or later! You'll also get better front tyre wear which isn't a bad thing.

[morris-out]

ok, so in summary:
Make a plate to spread the load on the chassis leg, this in itself will introduce negative camber, then add washer as required to make up 1 degree of negative camber. (5mm = 1 degree)
Then: Do one wheel at a time measuring the camber since the spacing required may be different on each side.
Ohh and place 85Kg's on the drivers seat during operation.

It would seem that using spacers to give the correct camber is well known in minor circles but I have not seen the reference to the load speeding plate.
Finally if there is sufficient thread left on the other side of the chassis leg fit an additional large washer also to spread the load.

I will also require some sort of DIY device to measure the camber.

Thanks for your advice and comments, very interesting.

Dennis

[philthehill]

Dennis
Where is the reference to the 'Load Speeding Plate'? Cannot see any reference to it in the above posts
I am not sure what you mean or understand to be the 'Load Speeding Plate'?
This is the link to the tool you want to measure the camber; and the gauge is not expensive in the world of tools and it will indicate to you what camber you have and what spacers you will need to get the camber you require.
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewP ... exID=17761
Really not worth the effort of making your own.
Whilst the picture shows the gauge fitted to the disc brake that really is not practical when you have the normal Minor steel disc wheel fitted for bouncing up and down. What I have is a pair of caravan axle stands that bolt to the hub in place of the road wheel and you can attach the gauge to that and bounce the car up and down to settle the suspension without any concerns. Those stands are also good when having the car on axle stands as the caravan stands when also fitted keep the loading off the bottom rebound stop. Good for when the car is parked up for long periods.
Phil

[bmcecosse]

Load 'spreading'....... You can get a good enough measure with a spirit level and a 6" rule. After all - it's not an F1 car, all that matters is that both sides are equal - they don't need to be 'exactly' 1 degree negative.

[morris-out]

Speeding - going to fast there!!!, its amazing how I can read my posting on preview and not see the error, DOOOO.
Correction 'load spreading'.

I was looking on the web and there are many ideas on how to measure the camber with DIY devices so I will go that way, at least initially.

Thanks for all your help chaps.

[MarkyB]

There is even an app for it!
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=325556

[mobylette]

And for those with an android 'phone, a free inclinometer app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... clinometer

[philthehill]

OK if you have a signal never mind the phone

[smithskids]

I have been running both my MM and pickup with approx 1 degree negative for years and it definately pays off in the tyre wear stakes. Front tyres only used to last about 7000 miles and the outside edge of the tyres were US. I have a 5/8th inch anti roll bar on the tourer and a 3/4 one on the pick-up. Check the track as well after adjustments. Happy motoring

[morris-out]

Thanks MarkyB
That is a great bit of information, I don't have a clever phone but the wife does have an iPhone, she won't for much longer!!
So you can zero on the level of your garage floor and then measure vertical degrees from that. I can see that it would be easy to use this to do the tracking as well.
Maybe a section on the forum with gizmos, tools and measuring devices would good so that folks can be aware of the tool options for doing specific jobs.

Cheers

[alexmcguffie]

Having used an Android app to level up a greenhouse base I would say that they are about +/- 5 degrees accurate! Prove whichever app you use is accurate first!

If you have a straight sheet of metal knocking around try making your own camber gauge as in the link below. I have a file you can print and stick on it which has the correct angles etc.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorspor ... 8143_20251[/img][/frame]