Not starting

[Offshore]

In February we had a trip down to Brum and back in my 1970 Traveller. No issues other than a broken throttle return spring (Thanks to Leadbetters of Lancashire for fixing it) and a burst tyre on the way home.

Once home Martha became a poor starter every day and several times was abandoned at home refusing to start. Spent many hours adjusting and readjusting the carb, mixture and idles. All to no avail. Ran well IF she started but had changed from being reliable first time starter to being threatened with the John Cleese treatment.

Two weeks ago she cruised to a stop on way home. Kind other bloke stopped and we spent 90 mind trying to get her to go. No chance. Towed home.

Not a chance of starting since. Investigations revealed muck in the float chamber. All cleaned out with carb cleaner and most of a rebuild kit from SU fitted. New fuel pipe with in line filter between pump and carb fitted. New fuel pump in Dec and working. Float is also cutting off fuel correctly. Not a brilliant spark so renewed rotor arm, dizzy cap and leads. Sounded healthier but still no start. Just kept churning over and sounding awful almost like pistons were going to seize. All stop and now no action or noise at all other than a loud electronic click from bulkhead behind steering wheel. Assume regulator box gone? From the front the right side set of points in regulator box spark but nothing on the left or outside set.

Where do I start guys? Even tried tapping starter motor with rubber mallet but no change - just a loud electronic click when try to start the engine.

Desperate!

[simmitc]

It sounds like a number of issues. Start by changing the condenser, clean/replace points and ensure that gap and timing are set correctly - plenty of threads on that topic. Check that you have the plug leads on the correct plugs and in the right order.

Charge the battery - if it's just been sitting for a few months, then it will be low. Ignore the regulator box for now. the click will be from the solenoid. It might have failed, but more likely the flat battery hasn't got enough power to turn the engine.

Just for good measure, make sure that the oil is OK!

[alexmcguffie]

As above but also check the earth strap between the engine and chassi is in good condition. The engine may crank if this is damaged but it will also reduce the quality of the sparks at the plugs.

[bmcecosse]

I agree - the main problem is a FLAT BATTERY! Charge it!! Then new points and condenser.... Don't start fiddling with the Reg box.......it has nothing to do with 'starting'....

[Offshore]

Hi guys. Thanks for the replies. With the exception of the points and condenser all the above been done in Feb. Earth strap fitted when it was beginning to be a poor starter. Battery charged twice a week on Optimate 3 when in use daily in darker times. Optimate indicating all ok.

Will change points and condenser at weekend as have them in stock.

Plug leads are in correct order having checked factory manual for firing order and wondered if strange noses were being caused by leads in wrong order. They weren't. Then checked location of each lead on dizzy cap using engine bay photo from insurance valuation. Also correct.

Seems to me no power getting through to starter motor. Electrics not my strong point. For £30 is it not worth changing starter solenoid and regulator box? Points and condenser only there for sparks? If engine not cranking then need to solve that first don't I?

A For Sale sign is becoming tempting at the mo.

Cheers guys.

[bmcecosse]

Charge the battery and check the connections. Can you turn the engine on the starting handle? It may be that the starter has 'stuck in'. Points and condenser are the obvious thing to investigate when an engine doesn't start. Let's get it started before worrying about the Reg box - if the dynamo is not charging (is that what you are suggesting - with all that battery charging) - then indeed the Reg box may be faulty - but there are other more likely reasons to be investigated first!

[Offshore]

The regular battery charging was just because it I have been using the car daily particularly in the winter. Running lights and wipers going to work and them home again I just kept it topped up to ensure she started.

Will change the points and condenser at weekend.

No signs that the dynamo is not charging. When I was towed home we had sidelights on for half an hour following an hour and a half trying to start her.

Will try with the starting handle but have never got her to start. Must have bad technique!

To my mind there is no power to the starter motor as the car does not turn over at all regardless of whether there is a spark at the spark plug.

Is there anything I can do with the starter motor?

Cheers.

[alexmcguffie]

PM sent

[bmcecosse]

I'm not suggesting you try to start the engine on the handle - just that you see if it will turn - to check if the starter has (hopefully not) jammed in. I still think the battery is flat... or bad connections. Why the PM AmcG? share the knowledge so others may gain from the experience !

[simmitc]

Based on your original post, and in particular "Not a brilliant spark", we head towards electrical problem; and then the solenoid clicking suggests that battery may be flat, or starter stuck, although it could still be the solenoid. Also, with the cap etc replaced, there is great scope for the leads to be wrong!

So, with additional info, first question: Does the engine turn freely with the handle? Not worried about starting, just does it turn OK?

Assuming yes, have you got a jump lead handy? We're not going to use another battery, just locate, on the solenoid, the large terminal that is wired to the starter motor. Clip the lead to it. Touch the other end of the lead to the battery terminal that is not earthed. Does the starter turn the engine now? If yes, then the solenoid could be faulty, if no, then the starter could be faulty, or the battery flat - would be worth testing the battery properly. Be careful that the jump lead does not make contact with any part of the body or engine!

Let's see what comes from those tests. It's nowhere near a selling point, it just needs some attention. By the way, the inline fuel filter really isn't needed. there's a perfectly good one in the pump

[Offshore]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Tried turning engine with starter handle and also turning square section ended shaft through starter motor. Both fine.

Next tried bypassing starter solenoid with starter cable. Few strong sparks and nearly welded one end to a terminal. Starter turned engine over but stopped with cable nearly being welded. Sounded like was struggling to turn over ie flat battery.
Tried starting on the key. Same result. Turned over but struggled. Still no start and then reverted to no action and just an electronic click.

Today I have replaced the battery, starter solenoid and regulator box. Same result just an electronic click. Also replaced condenser albeit not replaced points.

Am now sitting down with a coffee and composing a for sale ad.

Seriously if I have missed anything please advise. Only thing to replace now is the starter. Not yet tried bypassing the new solenoid but will look at that tmw. Would pushing the car or rocking it in first help free anything off? Have been advised to slacken off starter motor bolts and waggle it in case it is stuck and engaged.

Wonder what time the pub opens?.....

[alexmcguffie]

Symptoms do sound like a flat battery, dodgy starter motor or poor earth connection now. If you're sure the battery is well charged, I'd take the starter off and see that it turns freely and that the bendix is in the fully out position (i.e. furthest away from the electrical terminal at the other end) and moves freely along the shaft as it should when you counter rotate it. When you bolt it back in I'd be tempted to move the earth strap from where it is now to one of the starter bolts.

I assume the earth strap from the battery to chassis is in good condition? If you have some jump leads, connect one of them between the battery earth and the engine block. That should guarantee a good earth and eliminate one problem!

[bmcecosse]

Hmmm -well you have renewed a bunch of parts that didn't need renewing! Pretty much only the starter left now...assuming you have checked all the connections and straps as advised by many of us! It's not 'stuck in' - you proved that by turning the engine on the handle - and by turning the square on the starter. Is this battery a NEW one - or just 'another' one? Can you try jump leads from another car - putting the EARTH jump lead directly on the engine - and the non-earth on the battery terminal. This rather assumes both cars are -ve earth...... If not - take great care to match the polarity correctly.

[Offshore]

The battery is a brand new 43 amp battery purchased this morning and given a refresher charge. I am reluctant to jump start as the car is positive earth.

When you guys talk about earthing etc I assume I can use the positive terminal as earth etc and that all talk of earth straps stems from the positive side.

Apologies if I sound thick but it's been a long day and positive earth's make me nervous.

Will try various earthing tips tmw and make take out the starter. Is there any way of testing it on the car or bench? It turns fine but I have yet to check connections.

[bmcecosse]

Just make sure the two cars are not touching.... Then go from -ve on the modern car to your battery NON earth connection, and from the modern car +ve to your engine block. Nothing to it! But the suggestion earlier to use a jump lead as an earth connector - from your battery earth to the engine block is well worth trying and will only take a minute!

[Offshore]

Hi guys

Part charged the new battery after fitting new solenoid and regulator box. Used jump leads to replace existing leads from the battery. Engine turned but slowly and acted like a flat battery.

charged overnight and was full this morning with 2 green lights on the Optimate. Turned the key and same result - slow painful churning before stopping.

Assume the starter motor is burnt out.

I will order a new one today. Would it be best practice to replace all the associated straps and leads whilst I'm at up? Courier charges to my remote location are expensive.

With the exception of the engine and carb which itself has had new parts I have replaced everything from fuel pump through to points condenser rotor arm etc. Can only now be starter motor or straps?

[alexmcguffie]

I'd take the starter off and give it a good check over before spending too much more money. It might just need new brushes - £4 compared to £60 for a new starter. I'd be very surprised if any of the heavy duty battery leads were at fault. You've effectively proven they are ok by bypassing them with jump leads and getting the same fault.

Depending how competent you're feeling, I would remove the starter motor, undo the two long screws that hold the back cover, remove it and see what the brushes and commutator are like. The commutator can be cleaned up with scotchbrite or very fine wet and dry. You should be able to tell if the brushes are worn too far as they won't protrude very far out of their holder and won't have much spring pressure left to hold them against the commutator. I'm sure someone will have a 'minimum worn length' for them.

Re-assembly is a bit of a fiddle as you need to pull the brushes back so they slide over the commutator as you slide the rear cover back into place. The whole job shouldn't take more than an hour and you'll have saved yourself at least £50.

[alexmcguffie]

Out of interest, what model of Optimate charger are you using?

[ASL642]

We had this problem recently with one of our cars. Refused to start. Charged battery. Started, went to work and returned. Next am refused to start. Fitted new battery. Worked fine for a week then same problem.

We found out that the alternator was charging and then discharging - hence poor start. What state is your dynamo in?

[Offshore]

I am using an Optimate 3. Had it 2 years and it replaced an earlier unit. Used mainly for keeping my two bikes happy over winter (apologies for us in 4 letter words, well five)

Was a bit slow charging but it only charges at 0.6 amps not 2 - 4. Did the job though.

Re taking the starter apart time is of the essence. Wife bending my ear about using her car and I use the moggy for work. Boss also bending my ear about not having a car on the road. New on slotted in despite the cost would tick couple of boxes.

not sure about the dynamo. As far as I can tell it's fine. Car usually does several commutes and journeys for work and I then just top it up Wed and Sun. Just playing safe in winter motoring. Will stop that now as we are summertime apparently and won't using lights much or fan or wipers.