Marina Stub Axle

[Matt]

Guys

Can anyone tell me what diameter the stub axle holes need to be opened up too in order to accept marina stub axles in the minor leg?

Before anyone says... yes I have a suitable press to do the job ;)

[philthehill]

Matt
When I took my Minor uprights to the machine shop I also took a Marina/Ital upright with the stub axle removed as the pattern. They were then able to determine the size and interference fit.
Unfortunately I do not have a internal micrometre that small to give you the exact measurement but measured with my digital vernier calliper it is 1.056" ID; but if you want an exact measurement and are passing with an internal micrometre you can take a exact measurement. I have kept the Marina/Ital upright boss exactly for the purpose of future reference to the hole ID.
Do you have the Marina/Ital stub axles out of the uprights? The reason I ask is that there is a tendency for the stub axle to pick up and score when being pressed out. To overcome this I have taken to removing metal very carefully from the upright boss until the grip is broken and the stub axle can virtually be pressed out by hand. I have had several pick up when being removed even one that was a NOS assembly. Don't forget the machine a new recess for the Marina/Ital circlip 1.215" OD x 0.065" deep.
Prior to the Marina stub axle being pressed in it was left in the freezer over night and it was an easy to press in the next morning.
Regards
Phil

[Matt]

Hi Phil

I have just won some van (4.5" pcd) hubs/brakes/uprights etc on ebay so I haven't done anything with them yet.

But as you suggest I was planning on "cutting" the stub axles out of the upright. Once they are out it will be easy to measure the OD and determine a suitable size for fitting tolerance.

By the time I got a stub from the freezer to the press it would be back at ambient temp I might just put the swivel in front of the propane heater and press the stubs in when its freezing/snowing outside

I assume you mean the circlip at the back of the stub axle (like the minor one)

[philthehill]

Matt
Good for you.
As far as I am aware the stub axle is the same throughout the Marina/Ital production run whether it be a 1300cc or 1800TC. The only thing that varied was the wheel stud PCD on the hub.
Yes I did mean the circlip on the rear of the stub axle and beware they are often very rusty and disintegrate when attempts are made to remove the stub axle as I have found out to my cost.
When you fit the Marina stub axle you will still need the 'TOP HAT' spacer with the bearing seat removed to make up the difference between the Minor and Marina/Ital hub seal lip seat. See attached photo.
Any problems please come back to me.
Regards
Phil[frame][/frame]

[Matt]

Thanks Phil - I did read that in one of your previous posts. I'm just deciding whether its worthwhile - I do have the adaptor sleeves somewhere!

[philthehill]

Matt
It is all worthwhile and no more non standard bearings/hubs to have to find.
I can get Marina/Ital front bearings from my local motor factors First Line Pt No FBK034 complete with seal, grease and split pin for £9.95 plus VAT and they appear to do the business.
Phil

[Matt]

I picked up my (rather overpriced IMHO) van hubs and arms on Sunday (drove from Haywards Heath to March in Cambridgeshire) and because of new years and the rubbish weather first looked at them today.

I took the arms off the car, pressed the stubs out of the arms then attacked the marina arms with the angle grinder and slitting disc. I put a slit in the thinnest part of the casting surrouding the stub axle, stuck in in my press and split the casting to get the marina stub axle out. I touched both stub axles lightly with the disc, but they will be fine for re-use.

Took them to a local machine shop, who will do the machinging (he suggested a 2 thou intereference fit). Hopefully he will have done it by friday...

I can't find my adaptor sleeves anywhere to mod, but just as equally I will be looking to fit vented discs too so can't re-assemble immediately

[philthehill]

Matt
Happy New Year to you.
Glad to hear that you are making progress.
After having two stub axles pick up which resulted in damage to the Marina stub axle I decided to do it the hard way. Took the main metal off with the angle grinder and then filed away the rest until the metal was silver foil thick and the upright split of its own accord and I was then able to virtually press out the stub axle by hand so no damage to the stub axle. I have four more Marina stub axles to extract of which 2 will be held as spares and 2 will be fitted into another set of uprights. As regards the interference fit - So long as you have to use at least 11 tons pressure to press the Marina stub axle into the Minor upright you will be alright. You did instruct the machine shop to provide the recess for the circlip?
A point to note was that when fitting the adapters I found that the adapter was butting up against the upright before the adapter was butting up against the Minor oil seal seat; so I had to trim a little off to ensure that there was clearance between the adapter and the upright. This allowed the adapter and bearing to fit fully home. Used Loctite bearing lock to keep the adapter in place and to stop the adapter from turning. Photo shows adapter loctited in place and all ready for use.
Keep us updated on progress.
Phil[frame][/frame]

[Matt]

Hi Phil

I removed them by cutting almost all the way through on one side then using the press "bending" the arm and opening up the crack. One stub literally fell out, the other required just a tiny bit more force than I could exert without tools.

Yes I told the machine shop about the requirement to enlarge the recess.

Thats a good point about the adaptor sleeve, I will turn it down if required - but at the moment I am planning on talking to the bearing supplier local to my workshop (Redhill Bearings) about an oil seal with the correct OD for the marina hubs and ID for the minor seal. They have been useful in the past and I need to talk to them about some hydraulic seals for a jack too...

On the lookout for princess calipers now ;)

[bmcecosse]

Just my tuppence worth - 2 thou doesn't sound like much of an interference fit - you could achieve that fit by leaving the stub in the freezer overnight - and the kingpin in a warmish oven. I do think a bit more than 2 thou would be wise for security.

[philthehill]

Matt
Whilst it is up to you how you carry out the conversion; personally I would go for the modified adaptor and use a standard Marina hub seal. If you cannot find your adapters they are available from Bull Motif Pt No: MOD118A & £10 each. They may be cheaper than specialist seals in the long run. Consider also the depth of the seal as there is very little clearance between the seal and upright and if too deep it may not be retained properly and allow the seal pop out to be mangled between the hub and the upright.
To press out the Minor stub axle from the Minor upright only took 4 tons pressure at ambient temperature and no heat no freeze. As I said above it took a lot more to remove the Marina stub axle from the Marina upright so you will need a lot more to press home (11 tons at least). A greater interference fit may be required because of the greater force applied by the Marina disc brakes/wider wheels? Once you take metal out you cannot put it back again!!!!!

[Matt]

I am now in possession of swivels with marina stub axles fitted - I don't know how much force was required to press the stub axles in - the machine shop did it.

I haven't done anything with them yet - a paying job has got slightly in the way!

[philthehill]

Matt
Found a interference fit table that may be useful in future and for anyone else contemplating fitting Marina stub axles.

The interference force fit for a dia of 1 1/16" - 2" is given as the:-

High Limit 0.004"
Low Limit 0.003"

The dia of a Marina stub axle is 1.062" so the above tolerances are suitable.

The Minor stub axle is 0.983" so would have the High Limit interference fit of 0.002" and a Low Limit of 0.0015"

[bmcecosse]

If made size for size - then warming the casing in an oven and freezing the stub - will let them slide together easily!

[philthehill]

I would still want the interference tolerances however the assembly took place.
As you described was how my Marina stub axles were assembled into the upright but the interference tolerances were correct at room temperature before assembly.

[Matt]

Thanks Phil

Thats useful information