Odd swivel pins

[sixdogsisback]

Now I've looked close at the old legs I've just replaced, I see that they are different to each other. One has an additional area which I presume is an option to machine it to fit the steering arm in an alternative position. Please see picture. Can someone explain how the two different patterns fit into the scheme of things relating to Minors. I think the two odd items worked ok on my car. Notice also the remains of the inner wheel bearing on the lower leg. As it turned out there was no detectable wear on the joints, so I will pass them on to someone and they can get the old bearing race off the leg.

Clive[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

The extra lump is where the steering arm fits when used on Riley 1.5/Wolseley 1500....

[PaulTubby]

You selling these old arms...

[sixdogsisback]

I'd give them away to a good cause, but I don't want the hassle of posting them. They really do appear to be sound. I'm not especially hard up and at my age I don't hoard things which I will never use. You never know when you might have to sell up and move somewhere more manageable.
I've become paranoid about trunnions over the years. My first experience was in December 1965 (well remembered because it was a bitterly cold spell) in Trafford park in the rush hour. A friend in my digs had a Morris Minor van we got a lift in and he pulled out hard to pass a stationary vehicle at a traffic light junction and "bang" the suspension on the offside collapsed. That was when we learned about trunnions and what could happen to them. How he dismantled it by the roadside with just a few hand tools I will never know, but we did and he hopped on a bus going to Manchester and bought a new leg from a BMC dealer a few miles up the road. Looking back, no consideration was ever given to greasing the new leg or examining the other side to see if it was about to fail. He used to thrash that van all the way to Cornwall every weekend! The folly of youth! We were just 18 at the time. There were no men in yellow jackets going to show up in those days- a Bobby helped us out by directing the traffic, imagine that today!

In recent times, I've religiously tried to test my trunnions and kept them well greased, as I thought. But they are not that easy to test and I don't altogether trust MOT testers. Then earlier this year one of our branch members, who is very prone to disasters, had a trunnion fail and the suspension collapse, right outside his house ! How's that for chance? I would not be so lucky. The theory went that although rigorously tested and maintained and greased, old grease might have dried out with the car standing unused and prevent new grease entering and mask the wear. My trunnions needed new rubber boots fitting and since I needed to take them off to do this, I decided to buy two brand new leg assemblies from Bull Motif and for peace of mind have a clean start. £200 is not cheap, but these days they would charge you that much just to service a modern day car. My Minor prior to this had cost me just £3.50 for a new oil pressure switch in the whole previous year. So you have to look at things in perspective. I've had brand new cars in the past and these have cost me more in "Free servicing" to comply with the warranty than my old cars cost in repairs and maintenance.

[mike.perry]

Are the stub axles the same? The top swivel pin is for a Series MM/early Series II which has a brake drum with integral bearings and different stub axles. If the stub axles are the same then it may be that the same swivel pin design continued on the later Series IIs.
The top boss on the lower swivel pin is for a Wolseley 1500/Riley 1.5 steering arm. I believe that I have an old swivel with both bosses machined out
There is a modification to enable the Series MM drums to fit the M1000 swivel pin

[philthehill]

Mike you are right about the two holes in some uprights. When I worked in the BMC garage we were supplied with and fitted two hole uprights always making sure that the steering arm went in the lower arm for the Minor.

[sixdogsisback]

Bosses that's the word I'd been looking for! Yes the stub axles are the same. I've been there with MM's having the wheel bearings in the brake drum. What seems strange is that if the single boss leg is an early series II and my car is a later series II, though not very original, how does it come to be in such good condition. I've taken the trunnions off to make sure they are well greased and there is not the slightest play in the threads that I can detect. The new legs I fit seem a bit stiff, especially under load, I greased the trunnions before fitting, but it;s hard to get any grease through them with the grease gun. It squidges out from the blanked off ends of the trunnions.

Clive

[MarkyB]

Did you remove the new trunnions and inspect them before they were fitted?
I cleaned out and greased the new leg and trunnion I got as it seemed like it still had some swarf in it

Your disaster prone friend may not have managed to get any grease into the joint at all, you need to see clean grease coming out of the joint somewhere other than round the nipple.

[bmcecosse]

2nd vote for stripping out and removing swarf etc before fitting. I use Moly grease on the swivels.

[sixdogsisback]

Yes I took the trunnions off the pins and examined them, especially the machined groove in the lower joint. I used Moly grease to thoroughly grease them before I reassembled them. I'm not saying that I could not get more grease into the joint afterwards, but it was a struggle and the grease tended to squeeze out of the capped ends, which seem to be just a pushed fit like core plugs. When I've run the car a bit I'll check them over and grease them gain. you can't trust anything these days.

[philthehill]

The trouble with those top caps is that if the grease can get out the water can get in so will need regular greasing!
The NOS top trunnions that I have are fitted with top screw caps (with screw driver slot) not core plug type blanking plates. I have just screwed one out and a better seal can be obtained by using Loctite thread lock or similar on the threads it will then be completely sealed. All you will need to do then is make sure the swivel seals are kept in good condition and are a tight fit on the trunnion and upright. The action of the bump stop will not impact on the sealing of the cap if Loctite thread lock is used and the cap has been done up tight. You will need to fit a couple of washers or spacer under the top cap as the cap will screw down below the top of the trunnion if screwed fully home. When using the Loctite thread lock the threads must be clean/grease free before applying the Loctite thread lock. A bonus with removing the top cap is that you can easily clean the threads and you can see right through the trunnion to make sure that it is CLEAN and swarf free.
As regards to the bottom trunnion you are right in that the bottom cap is like a core plug. The NOS bottom trunnions I have the bottom cap is domed like a core plug. So if yours are the same an extra tap with a hammer/punch in the centre of the domed cap should tighten it up and cure the oozing of grease past the cap.

[mike.perry]

I always remove the grease nipples and pack the trunnions before fitting, I then fit the trunnion and refit the grease nipple when grease is coming out of the hole. This ensures that the grease is packed into the trunnion and gets over your hands and rags, your clothes and the garage floor

[whyperion]

It squidges out from the blanked off ends of the trunnions.
I had that problem with New QH top trunnion some years ago , thanks for the tip as still have it in use , I really dislike having to re-work stuff bought new.

[philthehill]

I usually find these day that the majority of stuff/parts for Minors has to be re-worked and/or fettled before use!!!!!!

[sixdogsisback]

I usually find these day that the majority of stuff/parts for Minors has to be re-worked and/or fettled before use!!!!!!

You are right. I've had trouble with most newly manufactured parts. Most of my life I've not bothered with secondhand parts, but bought new ones. Now for Minors I try and buy new old stock where possible. The new swivel pins and trunnions I've just fitted were a classic example. It was not difficult to replace these and in fact the nearside was dead easy, but the hub was a tight fit on refitting. On the nearside, with the newer twin boss steering arm moldings, the hub would not come off and eventually did so leaving the inner race of the inner bearing on the stub axle. I had a new bearing kit on the shelf so I rebuilt the hub with this, but it would not fit on the new stub axle, I wrecked the new inner bearing removing the partly fitted hub and I damaged the hub nut, applying too much force to try and get the hub onto the axle. Thinking the wheel bearings I had were those of the unreliable type I bought two new bearing kits from the leading supplier in Minor Matters where I had bought the pins and trunnions. They only supply one make and say that all the others are unreliable. These new bearings were exactly the same as the one I had just fitted and wrecked -RHP made in England. This time I offered the bearings to the stub axle, before fitting into the hub and found that there was not a chance of them fitting. Either the axle was too thick or the bearing holes too small. Reluctantly I began to work on the axle, first with fine emery paper, then course, then a fine file, as the first two had little effect. I kept trying the wearings and eventually had a comfortable fit, but it was dead tricky, as little force would cause them to jam and it is difficult to get them back off without pulling them apart. Once I was happy with the fit, I fitted the new bearings into the hub and the hub then fit very nicely and did up without using too much force.

Having finished putting the car back together, I began to study the old legs and remains of the wrecked bearings. I got the inner race off the old leg stub axle quite easily once I put a bit of heat on it and had it clamped in a vice. Having cleaned up the axle , I offered the remains of the old inner races of the damaged bearings to check the fit. The original bearing was just a nice sliding fit, but the newer one was tighter, but would still have pushed on. I concluded that the stub axle on the new leg had been the problem and was not accurately machined.
One should not have to attack the machined axle with a file to get the bearing to fit. This little lot has cost me an extra £60 or so because the bearings did not fit the axle. I wonder if the parts suppliers ever check the sizes for correctness or even just try and fit one of their bearings onto one of the legs which they sell? They must have access to the engineering dimensions of these parts and a means of measuring them.

I would urge anyone fitting new bearings or swivel pins to try the bearing on the stub axle for fit first, but don't tap them on or you will never get them back off without the bearing coming apart.

Clive

[philthehill]

The stub axle is case hardened/heat treated to resist wear from rotating inner bearing seats (and yes they should not rotate I know but). Therefore no metal should be removed from the stub axle!
As regards new parts - if you see any NOS even if you do not want it at the time get it because it is invariably better quality than the parts now manufactured; you can always sell it on if not required. NOS is out there it is just a matter of finding it!!!!!!!

[sixdogsisback]

So if the bearings won't fit on the axle, how should one proceed?

[philthehill]

If there was nothing wrong with your stub axle i.e. a bur I would take/send it back to where you purchased it and complain. Get another bearing preferably new old stock. The bearing should be just a firm push onto the stub axle. If I had to fettle the stub axle it would only be at maximum with a piece of very fine wet and dry covered in light oil never a file. As regards continued use of the bearings/stub axle & hub now fitted I suspect that all will be well and you will have no problems but keep an eye on it.
Morris Minor owners and I include myself are only too happy to accept parts that do not meet the quality standards required. We should not have to fettle and/or fit new parts that we pay hard earned money for. Whether the manufactures take any notice of our complaints - I doubt it and will continue to churn out the same old excuses. Happy motoring.

[MarkyB]

The stub axle is case hardened/heat treated to resist wear from rotating inner bearing seats (and yes they should not rotate I know

Are you sure it's case hardened? I don't think the thread end is as damaged threads appear to be relatively soft.

So if the bearings won't fit on the axle, how should one proceed?

Do just what you did and use some Loctite bearing stick* and bearing lubrication to ensure that what shouldn't happen, doesn't



* Invented name because I can't recall the exact product

[bmcecosse]

The stub part should be hard enough to resist a file ! And I agree with Phil - if it's too big (measure it!!) then send it back. Certainly don't use Loctite.......