Brake failure!

[duddlebug]

I enjoyed a brake failure on my '64 Morris Traveller today! Luckily I was coasting on an uphill slip road off a dual carriageway, with a nice big gap to the car in front, so dropped a gear and used the handbrake to stop. I had been driving along some shropshire roads, up and down hills and round sharp bends, so I consider myself very lucky... A recovery truck took me the 20 miles home (using my insurer's breakdown cover).

As soon as I got home, I jacked the car up to look for leaks and after going round each wheel suspecting a knackered wheel cylinder, I spotted a leak from the connection between the union on the axle and the the brake pipe to the N/S wheel. It's gushing out when I press the brake pedal!! I didn't get onto dismantling to have a proper look, and what exactly had failed, because it was going dark, and I had kids to pick up from our childminder, but I need to order parts to get it fixed so I can use the car next week. I will try and investigate a little more in the morning, but don't really want to just try re-tightening and bleeding....

I was thinking of buying a whole new set of copper brake pipes (Bull Motif had the set for £25) for future peace of mind. What else might I need if I was changing all of the brake lines on the car? And how big a job is this? Are there any particularly difficult or awkward connections or routing? Any tips to help, or common errors that I won't want to make?

Any quick responses, help or advice appreciated!!

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Brake pipe renewal is quite a big job esp. if you've never done it before. If I were you I'd ascertain the exact cause of the leak and if it is just a nut which needs tightening then that's fine. Although if this was the case you'd have thought there would have been plenty of warning in the form of weeping and/or fluid loss.

And you can buy 25ft of brake line from your local motorparts store for about £14, or even less if you dress up in oily overalls.

[beero]

Renewing all the pipes is a good job to do and in theory shouldn't take long BUT you will probably find a lot of joints won't come apart. I would suggest freeing everything first then you will know what else needs renewing, wheel cylinders, bleed valves, unions,etc. Also get new washers for banjo fittings and renew the flexi pipes. Take the pipes off one at a time and use the old one as a pattern for bending and make sure you use the right length bit of pipe in the kit.... (Unlike me who ended up with one pipe too short and had to have an extra one made up)

[bmcecosse]

DO NOT use copper! It word hardens and cracks - indeed you may find this is the problem at your connection....... Kunifer is the long lasting/non work hardening alloy for brake pipes. Or just normal steel bundy pipe - it should be good for 10 years.

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

My copper brake piping is still going strong after 56 years.

[bmcecosse]

Fails horribly at 56 years and 1 day I believe..........

[duddlebug]

Fails horribly at 56 years and 1 day I believe..........

I actually had a brake pipe fail twice on my original Morris Traveller, that I ran in the late 80s, in exactly the same place. In that case I put it down to a faulty copper pipe, which was bought from a local motor factors. The second failure was because I took it in and they 'repaired' it!! But I was seventeen, thought the man knew what he was doing, and didn't know about the work hardening of copper... As I said in my post, the pipe seems to have failed where it meets the union on the axle. Is this a common problem? I presume there's quite a bit of vibration on the axle (and the flexi is to separate the movement in the axle from the chassis).

I have got a bit of a judder when I let the clutch out to reverse, which I was considering asking about here. Does this suggest anything loose or problems at the axle/differential that might be causing some vibration? That might affect the brake pipes anchored here.

I had checked the fluid in the master cylinder two weeks ago, and no fluid on the garage floor where the car had been parked, so it must've been quite a sudden rupture. Also had to do some very hard braking about twenty miles before the failure, when a white van pulled out of a side road in front of me, whilst I was doing 55mph. His move was VERY last minute and I had to drop to about 10mph in not a lot of road.

As a seventeen year old, I did replace all of the brake pipes on my first traveller, but it was mid-restoration, so everything was easier to get at. The reason I'm considering replacing everything is that my wife worries about the brakes on the Morris because she knows the brake failure stories on my old one, and I take my 7-year-old daughter swimming in this one. She'd be happier if I had something more modern. But I love my Traveller. If it is any safer, or more resilient, then I'd fit the 'kunifer' piping. I don't mind paying a bit extra for such a critical component, and the extra expense might be worth it for putting my wife's mind at rest, even if the benefits are arguable.

For now, I might buy a set, but just replace the offending pipe, and work my way round the rest as time allows, maybe over the Christmas break. Is it worth replacing the union too? Or are these not a problem?

Thanks for the input!

If a pipe set is listed as copper-nickel mix (like the Automec one I saw on another thread here) does that mean it's Kunifer? Or is that a different alloy? If I can get a set, that be easier for me, with my time commitments over the next few weeks, and I wouldn't have to worry about messing up the cutting and flaring of the ends etc. (or buy the tools).

Also, do folk recommend steel braided hoses for the flexis, or are the standard rubber type perfectly fit for purpose?

And are there any brilliant bleeding gadgets nowadays. I always bled the brakes with my Dad, one of us pushing the pedal and the other working around the wheels. Any gadgets that let you do it by yourself, or should I get my daughter pushing the pedal for me?

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

No point spending money on a special brake bleeding tool when there are two of you, a clean jam-jar and some tubing.

Clutch judder may be down to the engine steady bar at the back of the cyl. head - check it.

[duddlebug]

No point spending money on a special brake bleeding tool when there are two of you, a clean jam-jar and some tubing.

Yup, that's how I always did it with my Dad. the trick nowadays would be getting my 7-year-old daughter to stay still long enough.

Clutch judder may be down to the engine steady bar at the back of the cyl. head - check it.

Thanks, I'll have a look!

[bmcecosse]

The copper nickel alloy IS Kunifer (CU NI FE ) - so yes - that's the one. The copper work hardens where it has been formed round to make the nipple end inside the fitting - it's an absolutely typical work hardening failure. I just have a cup of tea while the brakes bleed themselves - by gravity !

[duddlebug]

I forgot to post an update for this thread, but I did get a new set of brake pipes, but have so far only fitted the two pipes at the back (because I needed to use the car) and then the Morris has been off the road with some floor issues.

But I thought it'd be worth showing the failure...



The old pipe had sheared through where it was fastened into the t-junction. I can only presume this was the vibration and stresses this pipe is under on the rear axle, and most worryingly this is the exact place my first Morris Traveller suffered a brake failure as a student 20 years ago. Is this a known problem? Or have I just been unlucky? Or is there something bizarre about the way I drive a Morris Traveller, perhaps?

The old fluid was also rather horrible and murky. I put blinkin' loads of new fluid through the system, clearing bubbles and trying to get cleaner looking fluid. Funnily enough, i moved the three jars off the workbench in my garage and the crap seems to have settled. Is this an issue for my brakes still? Will pumping through the new fluid have replaced the gunky stuff? Or will it still be in the system? How do you replace ALL the fluid in a Morris?

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Indeed! A clean shear on a copper pipe.

There's always some murky fluid comes out, no matter how much fresh fluid you put in. Don't ask me why. The important thing is getting all the air out of the system and does the brake pedal feel solid, and pull the car up in a straight line?

[taupe]

That looks like a classic stress fracture surface to me.. the brake fitting in the picture looks to have a very loose fit on the pipe and quite a narrow contact surface, does the pipe fit snugly in the fitting or is it loose? This would contribute hugely as it would let the pipe flex around a very small area causing the stress to be raised in the pipe
.
I would never use copper pipe for brakes.

Taupe

[bmcecosse]

That is EXACTLY why copper pipes must NEVER be used. I had a pipe come away in my hand - with exactly that same failure when I was under the car doing some other work - and just happened to tug the pipe. Luckiest escape ever. Well done showing us the picture, and I hope all with silly 'copper' pipes will now take note. Kunifer is ideal, but even good old bundy is much safer than unsuitable copper.

[philthehill]

I agree that copper pipes should not be used. Use Kunifer it is as BMC says. Make sure though that the brake pipes are secured to the rear axle with the correct straps (item 104 in wksp man illus M2) or failing that cable ties. If it is not the pipes from the 'T' union (especially the long one to the N/S & which is the one that failed) on the rear axle to the wheel cylinders can set up a vibration that can lead to the failure at the brake pipe flange at the 'T' union. I have never seen one fail at the wheel cylinder end but happy to be corrected.

[Trickydicky]

Hi,
Regarding the replacement of brake fluid, one of my books ( I cant remember who published the book and don't have the book to hand as I am on holiday) says to replace the old brake fluid, first flush a quart of methalayted spirits through the system then refill and bleed with fresh fluid.

As for the copper brake lines, wouldn't copper have been the obvious choice when the car was made? Did knunifer come along after the end of production of the minor?
Also some owners may not be aware of the work hardening aspect of copper until a brake line shears or snaps off.

[bmcecosse]

Bundy tube was the standard brake pipe on cars in the past. I don't think ANY cars were fitted with copper pipes.....except perhaps ancient vintage cars when hydraulics first came on the scene? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_tube
The suppliers of 'copper' brake pipes could find themselves on the end of a criminal negligence case one day......