DAS AUTO (British vs German car programme)

[minor65]

For those who didn't see this last night, here's the link.

It shows how the German car industry excelled when British Leyland didn't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b03866cj

It's hard for me to comment, when I am a minor nut but work in a vw retailer.

[beero]

That was an excellent programme, seemed more about how we went wrong rather that how great (supposedly) the Germans are at making cars.

[Hubert]

... seemed more about how we went wrong rather that how great (supposedly) the Germans are at making cars.

Very true! I have to drive German products for my job every week, and I could tell you strories...

Happy to take a seat in my Moggy at the weekend.

Cheers
Hubert

[jagnut66]

Hi,
Now my home is in Mansfield and I have to commute to Milton Keynes on Monday morning I have a 90's VW Polo as a slave car. Though once I reach MK I can't wait to get back in the Minor, so that should tell you which I prefer, for all the VW's so called 'comfort and refinement', it's just...................boring!.......... (and I'm pretty sure it will fail it's next MOT as a matter of course anyway - don't all modern cars of a certain age).
The Polo has proved useful with it's hatch whilst I have been restoring / refurbishing my home (built in 1950), this weekend collecting a new cast iron fireplace and then a surround for it but as soon as I find employment up in the Mansfield area guess which one I'm going to sell............
Best wishes,
Mike.

[Hubert]

Hi,
, for all the VW's so called 'comfort and refinement', it's just...................boring!.......... Mike.

A 2011 VW Polo is one of my office cars, and that's the best of them all. At least it has rather good seats and hasn't broken down so far, but the build quality of former VWs (I had several in the 1980s) is not matched at all. And I always get a headache, when I learn I have been allocated one of our Opel Astras (a 2006 model and a quite new one from Dec. 2012). To name all the problems we have had with the two would make a long list. I am not astonished that the Opel company is in such a difficult economic situation at the moment.

Hubert

[Dean]

Sorry didn't watch the programme, but it is on my to do list...

In my opinion large companies to pay off pensions, debts, costs and to make money have to make sure they have at least one product that costs very little to make but generates huge profit/contribution to the business.

There is a huge trade off with cheap bits and assembly versus a quality finished product.

To be honest the Germans and the Japanese seem to get the balance better than UK plc and just about everyone else.

We seem to spend too much time feeling sad and wondering where industry went wrong, rather than look forward and put it right again.

[margoleadbetter]

For those who didn't see this last night, here's the link.

It shows how the German car industry excelled when British Leyland didn't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b03866cj

It's hard for me to comment, when I am a minor nut but work in a vw retailer.

I work for VW aswell and am a lover old BL Cars (I have a Sd1 and past Marinas etc), its sad to think how it all ended up but its fact that the german cars produced in later years were far superior (I dont personally own anything german)

Sad but true though, I worked for a MG Rover dealer for 5 years before it went bang, the Phoenix consortium were just out to make themselves rich by making cars as cheap as possible instead of investing in new models. The CityRover was plain awful and a disgrace.

[Wilson887]

That was an excellent programme, seemed more about how we went wrong rather that how great (supposedly) the Germans are at making cars.

I agree, the programme was really interesting but rather depressing!

[midengineracer]

I found a lot of similarities between your country and ours. Positive and negative. We both need to get off our asses and quit being entitled twits...

[kevin s]

It was interesting comparing it with the top gear article before which showed the vast amount of auto engineering and manufacture which still hapens in the uk ,true none of the multinationals are headquartered here but most companies are publicly listed anyway so the profits are always spread around the world. Remember GM recently choose to keep the uk astra factory and shut the german one, not everything is rosy in Germany even vw and bmw make many of their cars outside germany, many uk bmws come from south africa for instance. I thought it painted a somewhat pessamistic picture, it painted th mk 1golf as trouble free, i remember them as being terrible for corrosion though.

[lambrettalad]

When I look at the designs that triumph ,wolsey ,rover ,austin etc produced and then compare with the bland imports from japan in the early to mid seventies ,I just stare and wonder where did it all go wrong ? I think the answer is ........

BMC,VERY POOR MANAGEMENT AND RED R***O .Plus

Total disregard for design and too many parts bin cars,even when they developed ground breaking engineering they didn't spend enough on r and d

The japan cars were very poor quality(BMW rusted badly as well but were reliable ) to start with ,but then they upped their game and forced the rest of the motoring world to buck their ideas up and bring quality into the market

When I drove a 10 year old car in the sixties it was on it's last family of tin worms before the scrapper
Todays youngsters are driving very well made reliable 2000 cars and older

I used to spend every sunday morning queuing in the unipart store for much needed bits and bobs ,too keep it on the road!!

soap box has been put away

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

There was nothing wrong with the design of British cars, it was the execution that let them down.

Leyland-bashing is still a popular national sport. People are stupid and believe the myth of German reliability, largely due to marketing and status, which is, and has always been, everything. The much-trumped VW Golf had an engine which would destroy itself because the timing-belt pulleys were made of plastic which would melt.

No cars from the BMC stable looked the same (apart from the badge-engineered versions) despite sharing many parts.

It's true that British cars were crap, but not to the extent people nowadays like to believe. Foreign cars of the period weren't much better, and were made from thinner steel, and very often less daring; more mechanically orthodox.

The old Benzes and Borgwards were absolutely superb, but Opel, BMW, Audi, VW? No thanks.

It took the Japanese to show the world how to make cars - not the Germans. And even the Japanese began their success by making Austin designs under license.

[jagnut66]

Lets find a English patriot with plenty of cash and bring back the good old British marques then.................... Oh, the title rights were all sold to the Germans and the Yanks................. I wonder who let that happen then................

[Hubert]

There was nothing wrong with the design of British cars

Very true. When I first saw a Rover SD 1 I thought "wow, what a car!" It was on sale in Germany, as I learned later. But I cannot remember a single advert in a paper or magazine, nor do I remember a dealer or garage for British cars near me (in those days I used to live close to a city with over 150,000 inhabitants).

I also think British cars of the 1960s - 1980s were not at all worse than German, French or Japanese cars. One of the reasons they weren't more successful in Germany was probably the fact, that they were different from most of the cars, the average German was used to, only to name electrics with positive earth.

Also as far as I know none of the British manufacturers had a German branch, all the cars were sold through importers. And those were usually representing several makes, which lead to bad marketing for the individual cars.

Sorry to see that so many chances have been missed in the past.

The first Japanese cars were rubbish, they were only sold because they were cheap and had a lot of free extras. It took them at least 15 years until they could produce competitive cars for Europe. By the way, I just traded my 8 year old Mazda 6 Estate in for a newer Peugeot 5008. I was very satisfied with the Mazda and loved driving it - until I changed the tyres in April and looked underneath the body. I would have never thought a car, manufactured in this century could show so much rust.

Cheers
Hubert

[minor65]

Working for vw, having several VW's in the family and personally owning a 14 year old Bora which is in all round excellent condition including all original brakes pipes with 120k and engine/gearbox/flywheel/turbo never touched. If that was a 14 year old rover/ford/Vauxhall it would at least have been re brake piped + welding.

I think also it is the way you treat a car, maintain/service/clean regularly esp in British weather

Maybe I'm just biased, but I wouldn't own any other make of modern

[Dean]

I think the big difference was the Germans and the Japanese listened and worked to reverse the faults/criticisms of their products.

The British cars manufacturers up until the late 80's didn't appear to.

[moggiethouable]

Its all about money.
After the second world war we halted all production of aircraft in Germany and dismantled their forces.
Ever noticed how the Mercedes and bmw logos look like propellors?
Subsequently We chose to spend on nuclear weapons,the Germans had no choice but to invest in car/motorbike production.
It is also no coincidence that Japan enjoys the same level of success.
You dont need to be an intercontinental ballistic missile scientist to work the rest out.
It has precious little to do with our capabilities as engineers or businessmen.

[Dean]

So what's America's and China's reasons? Okay, America isn't the vehicle powerhouse it was, but industrial yes, the Chinese are heading that way too.

[moggiethouable]

So what's America's and China's reasons? Okay, America isn't the vehicle powerhouse it was, but industrial yes, the Chinese are heading that way too.

The U.S. never saw the reason to expand production by exporting,when you have a domestic (home) market that large complacency sets in.
Even now Americas route to Europe is to own car plants here in the Euro area.
The Japanese saw their opportunity by subsidising cheap exports with the capital denied to their armed forces.
By the time the Yanks saw what was coming it was too late, and the only way to combat the Jap invasion was to reluctantly invite Japanes car plants in,much the same as we did here when Thatchers government invited first Honda with a joint venture with Triumph established by Michael Edwards, then chairman of Leyland, Nissan were next, the success of Nissan incidentally proves conclusively that British designed (Cranfield) and built cars can be successful again with enough capital input.
If we want more evidence of how good we are at designing and building cars, take a look at Jaguar Land Rover who only needed masses of dosh in this case provided by the huge Tata group of India, the skills were here all the time.
China already have the worlds car manufacturers purchasing many parts produced there, its only a matter of time before they successfully export complete vehicles.
We are very good also at listening to propoganda perpetuated by the various governments we have had.
We were told we were not as efficient as our Japanese and German counterparts, but as an ex employee of a major Japanese manufacturer I can personally verify that Japanese goods during those critical periods were dumped through huge government subsidies, once again Money was the key and critical factor.

[Dean]

All down to senior management then?

The funds were there for anyone to tap into and convince it was a good investment (subsidies to one side of course).

JLR now have a management team that have explored and convinced investment houses to invest in a vision. A vision that includes quality and expansion. It isn't all TATA motors money, they couldn't afford it, JLR is bigger than Tata motors.

It's almost as if it was staring every previous owner in the face all the time, they just didn't believe it could be done.

The CEO with this vision is..... German...