Ethanol in Petrol

[johnhannam]

Our magazine keeps us up to date about the likely increase of ethanol in our petrol and the possible damage to classic cars. I expect the increase will happen so should we be clear about what we can do to prevent damage to a Morris Minor?
For some years cars have been fitted with plastic petrol tanks, sensors for everything and lots of plastic seals in vital parts like fuel injection. I can understand how ethanol could damage these but what will be the likely impact on our cars?
Is it too simple to suggest that the vulnerable bits in our cars are the SU pump - will the diaphram dissolve ? the SU carb -will the seals swell or dissolve.Is there any other vulnerable bit in a Morris?
Surely Minors were designed when alcohol was regularly added to petrol [Discol etc] and carburettors, pumps etc were designed when our petrol was a much lower specification than now. You will realise I am no expert but I would be interested to hear other views?
Regards,
John

[bmcecosse]

Nothing will happen - it's like the 'unleaded' farce - many additives will be offered for sale, along with 'magic pellets' to put in the tank.....and all will be a waste of money.........

[Biggles1957]

Well the petrol pipe from pump to carb on my Series One Land-Rover dissolved in 'modern' petrol, and a NOS replacement did the same in a year. I understand it's well known that older rubber formulations are damaged by ethanol....

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Please, there are several long threads on this topic. Give us a break - it is highly unlikely that any parts will be damaged.

[1098]

Nothing will happen - it's like the 'unleaded' farce - many additives will be offered for sale, along with 'magic pellets' to put in the tank.....and all will be a waste of money.........

Here here ! Unleaded petrol,what a waste of time. Heard all the arguments,yawn..big time. Been driving a petrol tanker for the last twenty five years. I saw the transition form 4/3/2 Star,to unleaded,and heard all the moaning from the oil companies,re the cost involved,and it was big. But basically,we have achieved little, if nothing,with the transition. Fill your petrol tanks with diesel now and again,give it a good swill,drain it off,and fill up with petrol once more. Wish I had invented the High Visibility Jacket now,another cash generator. My son took his driving test the other day,through out the test,the examiner had his high vis vest on !

[bmcecosse]

I agree! But you puzzle me with the 'diesel' idea = why do that?

[1098]

Cos it's just like swilling your tank with old engine oil,a very good preservative,gets in all the nooks and crannies.

[bmcecosse]

Ahhh right - but does nothing for the 'unleaded' or 'ethanol' effect! R

[johnhannam]

I found this,
http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/legislation-and- ... formation/
Perhaps the major problem for us is corrosion in a petrol tank left overwinter.
Regards,
John

[dp]

I've recently sprayed a motorbike tank in cellulose (rattle can) and this IS being affected by petrol drips. I don't know if it's ethanol or always was affected but I'm thinking of having the tank clearcoated in 2k to stop further damage.

[philthehill]

Regarding the petrol drips on the motorcycle tank lifting the paint. I had exactly the same problem on my motorcycle tank which had been re-sprayed by a previous owner.
The solution was to re-spray and give it a 3 final coats of Halfords Petrol Resistant Lacquer.
Product bar code No: 5 015025 768694.
Problem solved.

[dp]

I've heard a lot of complaints about that Halfords petrol resistant stuff. Mostly about it taking forever to set and if it did, not being very shiny.

How did it turn out on yours?

[philthehill]

Just followed the instructions on the can and had no problems at all with the drying times. I just made sure that it was a warm day and that the humidity was low..
Quoting from the instructions on the can:-
'Apply a maximum of three coats allowing 15 minutes between each coat. It is important to observe the 15 minute interval as after 1 hour the lacquer cannot be over-coated. The lacquer should be allowed to cure for at least 48 hours before allowing any contact with petrol'.
I would agree the final finish may not be as shiny as if you had used straight paint but I would rather have the protection of the lacquer than the smeared and lifting paint experienced prior to its use.

[Hubert]

On our return journey from the National Rally we had to stop at a supermarket petrol station in France which only sold 95 octane E 10 (= 10 % ethanol) and diesel. So I filled the Moggie with the E 10, and what happened - nothing. I have been rather confident that nothing would happen anyway. My carburettor has been overhauled with new gaskets in 2009 and the tank has been cleaned and sealed. So I guess there was no danger of affecting old gaskets or separating debris in the tank and blocking fuel lines.

I have heard from mates who drive vintage motorcycles, that E 10 didn't harm their engines, but they had relatively big problems with mud from the tank which separated from the bottom of their tanks and blocked their fuel filters. This is the only danger I can see with Ethanol, it is aggressive to material which has settled at the bottom of the tank, and this may block the fuel pipes.

Cheers
Hubert

[Vigil]

If you guys think it does not hurt your motors you are fooling yourself..
It not only promotes wear it also gives you lower fuel economy.

The Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) case for E15, a fuel blend consisting of 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent gasoline, has completely fallen apart, as evidenced by the recent report from the American Automobile Association (AAA) that E15 can cause accelerated engine wear and failure, resulting in costly repairs for unsuspecting consumers.

The AAA’s report has again raised the question of whether Congress should roll back the mandate requiring escalating production of ethanol, mainly from corn. The answer is, increasingly, yes.

Cellulosic ethanol made from wood chips, switchgrass, and other sources is still not viable. Consequently, corn ethanol is the only domestically produced biofuel that is available in large quantities to meet the mandates.

Corn ethanol is clearly inferior to gasoline as a fuel source for automobiles. Despite a 51-cent-per-gallon tax credit to companies that blend ethanol into gasoline, ethanol costs about 70 cents a gallon more than gasoline on an energy-equivalent basis. Instead of helping consumers, ethanol provides 27% lower fuel economy than gasoline.

Realistically, you have to burn a lot more ethanol-based fuel to create the same amount of energy to power your car, which has unnecessarily driven up the cost of operating a vehicle.

There is only a few states with E10 & even less with E15.
Fortunately no E gas stations in my area.
Can you imagine if it was E30 mix.

I do agree, that the unleaded gas has not seemed to hurt my unmodified motor & I drive a lot.
The Morris Tourer is my daily driver & has gone 100,000 miles in 8 years. No problems so far with the valves.
I have had a lot of other things happened in that time as well as doing the bushings & other maintenance.

I hope i was able to shine a little light on the Ethanol for you from over the pond.

For you non believers you can check my facts.
http://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/ethanol-gas/
or search AAA on corn gas
This was from November of 2012 so the information is fairly recent.

Vigil

[Hubert]

Vigil,

what you say may be right, but I would like to mention two facts:

1. During the 2nd World War Germany wanted to be independant of oil supplies from other countries, and we only have small oil fields in our country. Therefore the chemical industrie developed a method to produce alcohol from sugar beet, and this alcohol was added to the petrol with a quantity of 25 % which created a petrol named Monopolin. I have never read that any changes had to be done to the motors which burned this petrol, nor have I read about bigger numbers of engine failures due to what we would now call E25.

2. After the oil crisis of the 1970s countries like Brazil and Mexico introduced E 85 and E 100 fuel for their cars. And again the engines didn't have to be altered at all, only fuel pipes and hoses, gascets etc. had to be changed.

This shows me that it is possible to run a normal engine on fuel which contains ethanol without damaging the motor itself.

On the other hand I personally completely disagree with the introduction of E 10 in Germany, and I normally don't buy it, nor for my Moggie, not for my wife's Peugeot 206 CC, even if the petrol station doesn't sell 95 octane E5 and we have to buy the more expensive 98 octane petrol. But this is for a completely different reason. To produce the necessary quantity of ethanol they have to use valuable farming space which could otherwise be used to produce food for people or animals. This may not so much be a problem in Europe, but there are other countries where people are starving and would be happy if the fields would be used to produce food. In other words, growing plants for the production of ethanol is a competition to growing them for food, and in my opinion this is not right!

As I mentioned before, when I filled E10 petrol on the return from the national rally I had no other option. Already at the next stop at a Luxembourg petrol station I filled E5, and now, back at home I did the same. But it has shown me that the occasional filling with E10 doesn't destroy my Moggie's engine.

I hope I was able to explain my thoughts, as I am not a native speaker.

Cheers
Hubert

[Vigil]

I totally agree with you.
I found what you wrote about the past interesting.
Small amounts probably do not harm our motors.
I just wanted people to know long use does take its toll on the motor.
I am sure you agree 27% lower fuel economy is not exceptable.
That means more fill ups & cost to us the consumer.
I also agree it is better to feed people with the grains.
Here in California our growing areas are being turned into houses.
So the amount of over all food production in down from the past.

Vigil