Brakes Help Please

[morris4doris]

Hi all
Ive only just joined the moggie world so forgive my ignorance!
Ive bought me a 1959 Morris 1000 and am concerned about the brakes. They feel very spongy and dont really grip until the 2nd pump. They are the standard all round drum. The guy i bought it off said hed replaced the slaves and masters and i took it tomy local garage to have the brakes bled but there was no air in the system!
The brakes do work but not very well and wondered whether this is normal for moggies or what may be wrong.
Also when im going down hill i obviously have to brake quite hard and i get that awful brake burning smell if i ride them too long. Is this common/ok for moggies? Ive never owned an all round drum brake car b4.
Thanks

[beero]

If they improve after the second pump they usually need adjusting up. You can do this without dismantling. Take the wheels off and get a torch to look in the holes of the brake drum. You will see the adjusting screws (flathead), there are two on each side for the fronts and one each side at the rear. Do them up till the drum sticks and then back off one or two clicks til the drums are free. A spongy pedal can also be old soft flexible rubber pipes that are expanding. You need to contact someone in your local branch who will let you compare your brakes with theirs. Put your location up and someone nearby may offer to help. The brakes will never match a modern car but you should be able to lock the wheels on a dry road.
Welcome to the forum.

[bmcecosse]

For an early car like that - an upgrade to the later 8" front drums is well worth doing and costs very little....the same slave cylinders fit both, so you just need backplates/shoes/springs (maybe adjusters) and drums.... Usually plenty of good secondhand ones going the rounds. Ask in 'wanted' - or start tracking ebay.... Going down hills - use the engine for braking - don't brake constantly which fades the brakes away to nothing. The modern 'non asbestos' shoes are much worse for this than good original shoes...... And as other have suggested - adjust the brakes to get the pedal up. The footbrake should lock all 4 wheels on a dry road at 30 mph. The handbrake should lock the rears at 20 mph.

[morris4doris]

thanks for that, that sounds very helpful to me, i will have a look at adjusting them. Might try front disc upgrade in time

[bmcecosse]

No need for expensive disc conversion (and all it entails) ...........the 8" front drums are more than adequate for a standard car......and for an improved performance car , 9" drums are available........

[morris4doris]

A friend with a moggie mentioned the 8''upgrade. Ive looked again at the brakes and think air must be getting in as the passenger side front brake pipe is leaking from where the flexi meets the copper brake pipe. Ive tightened both the nuts as much as they will go so hopefully that will stop the leak

[JPX877J]

As mentioned above, don't ride the brakes as changing down is much better for everything.

[mike.perry]

Don't forget to top up the master cylinder after you have sorted the pipes

[morris4doris]

Well ive had a great couple hours. Was adjusting shoes like advised and notice that dam brake pipe was still leaking so i took it to bits to see if there was any obivous damge and the bloody copper pipe snapped as i was putting it back on, garage job now

[bmcecosse]

Which is EXACTLY the problem with COPPER brake pipes. They work harden - and break. It was probably cracked and that was your leak. Copper should NEVER be used for brake pipes - you want Kunifer - doesn't rot, and doesn't work harden. When I got my Trav (many moons ago now) I had exactly your problem - touched a 'copper' brake pipe and it came away in my hand!! Changed them all there and then (brake pipe flaring tool - great investment) - no more problems.

[morris4doris]

hi again.
Ive had the brake pipe changed and adjusted all the brakes, the front one was quite out. I think the brakes are a bit better but they still seem bad to me, pedal right to the floor alot of the time. The garage said i had no leaks and had bled the system and the guy i bought the car off put me off collecting it for 2 weeks as he said he was changing the master cylinder. I just dont know whether this poor performance is typical of all round drums, but im a bit stumped now. Any suggestion?

[hanvyj]

hi again.
Ive had the brake pipe changed and adjusted all the brakes, the front one was quite out. I think the brakes are a bit better but they still seem bad to me, pedal right to the floor alot of the time. The garage said i had no leaks and had bled the system and the guy i bought the car off put me off collecting it for 2 weeks as he said he was changing the master cylinder. I just dont know whether this poor performance is typical of all round drums, but im a bit stumped now. Any suggestion?

If there's no leaks, and its been bled then its likely to be the master cylinder. Its basically a piston (as far as my understanding) and when the seals go on it the fluid can get past, so the brake pedal can't put any pressure on the fluid. Pedal goes to the floor but there arent any leaks.

Not a big job to change, and I think they only cost £60 or so. Don't bother with repair kits. Unlike modern cars there is no dual circuit, not worth messing around with it to have it fail going down hill!

[hanvyj]

While drums aren't as efficient as disks, their main problem is fade, which happens when they are applied for a while going down a hill or similar. Initially they are very effective and should be able to lock the wheels at 30mph on a dry road.

The pedal should NEVER drop to the floor. Do not drive it if it does, you have a serious problem with it!

[bmcecosse]

The brake pedal does NOT go anywhere near the floor when the brakes are correctly bled and adjusted -and they will easily lock the wheels on a dry road. They are perfectly adequate for a sensibly driven Minor. There is something seriously wrong with your brakes - adjust them up properly - and then bleed them through at all 4 corners.

[mike.perry]

And do not go near that garage again, if they can't do a simple job lke sorting the brakes on a Minor.......

[morris4doris]

Problem finally solved! Took it to a GOOD garage and they thoguth it was master cylinder, no change
After ages looking into it they found one of the front shoes had worn on an edge and was no longer completely semi circular, so the adjusters weren't doing anything!
A small spacer in and job done