A Frame
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southerly95
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A Frame
Is it possible to use an A frame to tow a Morris Monor? Have you used one and is it straightforward? Thanks, John
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Re: A Frame
I've used one on numerous occasions. Very simple and straightforward. The caveat is ensuring that you are legal - check weight limits for the towing vehicle. The towed car does not have to have an MOT, but it must be structurally sound enough to be on the road, and not a danger to other road users. You must also use a correct trailer board etc. Apart from that, it's the easiest towing that I've ever done.
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Greengrass
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Re: A Frame
I will let you into a secret it has to be taxed and MOTed and road worthey believe me i know
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welshrat
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Re: A Frame
He is right, also looked into this, if I rember rightly they are not to be used for general towing purposes.Greengrass wrote:I will let you into a secret it has to be taxed and MOTed and road worthey believe me i know
Re: A Frame
Correct! The towed car MUST be legal with MOT/Tax/Insurance - and A frames are only allowed now for short distance emergency recovery by the likes of AA/RAC that sort of operation.
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southerly95
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Re: A Frame
I wanted to use it for long distance to reduce wear and tear so that doesn't sound possible. The car is MOT'd and fully legal and close to concours. Which regulations cover these restrictions and does the same apply to towing dolly's?
This is odd as I regularly see those large caravanets towing cars like this?
Thanks John
[/frame]
This is odd as I regularly see those large caravanets towing cars like this?
Thanks John
[frame]bmcecosse wrote:Correct! The towed car MUST be legal with MOT/Tax/Insurance - and A frames are only allowed now for short distance emergency recovery by the likes of AA/RAC that sort of operation.
[sig]4918[/sig]
Re: A Frame
Go here (the Government website) and download the Information Sheet on A Frames and dollies.
It's a dreadfully written document, not even proof-read properly, but my interpretation of it is that A Frames can be fine, provided that the combined weight of the A Frame itself and the car being towed is less than 750kg. Once you go over this, you are into a minefield of legislation on trailer brakes. I don't think any Minors weigh less than 750kg, so a Minor plus A-Frame cannot be towed without "trailer brakes". I cannot think of a practical way of modifying a Minor to enable it to have compliant brakes, whether coupled to the towing car or over-run (*). There are other requirements for lights, reflectors, the spec of the towing vehicle, and licences, but these are relatively easy to comply with.
The Information Sheet does not distinguish between A-Frames used for broken-down and other cars.
The Information Sheet also covers Dollies. My interpretation is that dollies can be OK for recovering a broken down vehicle, but you are limited to 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads. Any other use, and the dolly needs brakes and suspension, and the braking minefield is as bad as ever.
Which is why I have a trailer.
Kevin
* but please see my later post that shows others have more ingenuity than me.
It's a dreadfully written document, not even proof-read properly, but my interpretation of it is that A Frames can be fine, provided that the combined weight of the A Frame itself and the car being towed is less than 750kg. Once you go over this, you are into a minefield of legislation on trailer brakes. I don't think any Minors weigh less than 750kg, so a Minor plus A-Frame cannot be towed without "trailer brakes". I cannot think of a practical way of modifying a Minor to enable it to have compliant brakes, whether coupled to the towing car or over-run (*). There are other requirements for lights, reflectors, the spec of the towing vehicle, and licences, but these are relatively easy to comply with.
The Information Sheet does not distinguish between A-Frames used for broken-down and other cars.
The Information Sheet also covers Dollies. My interpretation is that dollies can be OK for recovering a broken down vehicle, but you are limited to 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads. Any other use, and the dolly needs brakes and suspension, and the braking minefield is as bad as ever.
Which is why I have a trailer.
Kevin
* but please see my later post that shows others have more ingenuity than me.
Last edited by autolycus on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A Frame
USED to see mobile homes towing a car on an A frame - but not any more. They tow a trailer with car on top - often a wee 'Smart' car, sometimes a Mini, sometimes a 2CV. A frames are out. Even towing dollies seem to be on a shaky nail.....
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trevor groves
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Re: A Frame
Hi
As a retired Patrolman,with many years service,I do not like A Frames.
If you use the chain type,they can bend suspension arms etc,they should not be used for non MOT cars.
The Police in my Area would insist on a full lift,ie all wheels off the deck,then becomes a load.
Many a bars can be seen on ebay,why because the AA and Rac have moved on to total lift dollies or Trucks.
Patrols still use towropes and towpoles,but mostly to move a vehicle to a safe location,before loading on to Total lift gear.
One good thing about the A Frame,is you dont need another Driver,and most People dont like being towed.
If you are going any distance,a Trailor or Truck is best.
I have seen a few rough Trailors too,broken welding shot wheel bearings lights etc,in otherwords,if your going to tow,do it safe.
As a matter of interest, when the AAs Minor Van was being restored,it was moved by Truck or Trailor,at no time would the A Frame be used or even thought of as a means of recovering a non roadworthy vehicle.
As a final note,motoring laws change all the time,so please check for any changes,even some Police Officers,who are not on
regular Traffic duties can be confused.
What happens if you dont need an MOT now,another minefield.
best regards
Trevor[frame]
[/frame]
As a retired Patrolman,with many years service,I do not like A Frames.
If you use the chain type,they can bend suspension arms etc,they should not be used for non MOT cars.
The Police in my Area would insist on a full lift,ie all wheels off the deck,then becomes a load.
Many a bars can be seen on ebay,why because the AA and Rac have moved on to total lift dollies or Trucks.
Patrols still use towropes and towpoles,but mostly to move a vehicle to a safe location,before loading on to Total lift gear.
One good thing about the A Frame,is you dont need another Driver,and most People dont like being towed.
If you are going any distance,a Trailor or Truck is best.
I have seen a few rough Trailors too,broken welding shot wheel bearings lights etc,in otherwords,if your going to tow,do it safe.
As a matter of interest, when the AAs Minor Van was being restored,it was moved by Truck or Trailor,at no time would the A Frame be used or even thought of as a means of recovering a non roadworthy vehicle.
As a final note,motoring laws change all the time,so please check for any changes,even some Police Officers,who are not on
regular Traffic duties can be confused.
What happens if you dont need an MOT now,another minefield.
best regards
Trevor[frame]
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trevor groves
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Re: A Frame
The photo shows a AA Austin 8cwt Van,which was once owned by the AA.
The AA still ownes YYK 643 H,which is part of the Heritage Fleet
Most Minors and Minis where badged as Austins,one Austin Minor went for accident repairs,and came back a Morris
The AA still ownes YYK 643 H,which is part of the Heritage Fleet
Most Minors and Minis where badged as Austins,one Austin Minor went for accident repairs,and came back a Morris
Re: A Frame
Well, that means I have a useless bit of kit. It was a delight to use before the rules changed, well made, and towed my van with it many times. Once towed it from Devon to Manchester,after some restoration work, the A frame worked well.
Thanks for the update Trevor,lovely van by the way.
Thanks for the update Trevor,lovely van by the way.
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trevor groves
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Re: A Frame
Hi
If your van is taxed and has mot,and roadworthy,I think you can still move it this way,but a trailor would be far better.
No one is allowed to sit in the car whilst on a A frame,its like towing a caravan.
With the ridge towpole,you need a steersman,so it ok to sit in vehicle.
I still see many motorhomes moving a small car this way,but only a few small cars come within the weight limit
ie Smartcar Fiats,etc
There is always grey areas,even Police Offers have different views of the laws.
An interesting subject
regards
Trevor[frame]
[/frame]
If your van is taxed and has mot,and roadworthy,I think you can still move it this way,but a trailor would be far better.
No one is allowed to sit in the car whilst on a A frame,its like towing a caravan.
With the ridge towpole,you need a steersman,so it ok to sit in vehicle.
I still see many motorhomes moving a small car this way,but only a few small cars come within the weight limit
ie Smartcar Fiats,etc
There is always grey areas,even Police Offers have different views of the laws.
An interesting subject
regards
Trevor[frame]
Re: A Frame
I have now found that there are commercially available systems which claim to permit the towed vehicle's brakes to be actuated by an over-run coupling. Some of these systems are horribly crude: bringing Bowden cables in through open windows and bracing against the driver's seat, for instance; others are designed only for cars with servo braking, and rely on accelerometers and auxiliary vacuum pumps. Many rely on semi-permanent modifications to the towed car, such as additional wiring, attachments to the brake pedal or master cylinder, and even bull-bar-like structures to fasten the A-frame to.
One factor these systems seem to have in common is ££££ - lots of them. Another is that if an over-officious officer, whether police or VOSA, asks me to prove my trailer is fully compliant, I can show them the maker's plate. Morris Minors with bits of ironmongery strapped on may have adequate brakes as a trailer, but I wouldn't like to try to convince someone at the roadside.
Kevin
One factor these systems seem to have in common is ££££ - lots of them. Another is that if an over-officious officer, whether police or VOSA, asks me to prove my trailer is fully compliant, I can show them the maker's plate. Morris Minors with bits of ironmongery strapped on may have adequate brakes as a trailer, but I wouldn't like to try to convince someone at the roadside.
Kevin
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rayofleamington
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Re: A Frame
I've used my A-frame many times on many vehicles, large and small over many distances. The comments are correct about the 'road legality' of the towed vehicle, and we would of course not recommend to ignore rules.
DVLA will not class the towed vehicle as a trailer as far as road tax rules are concerned unless it has been modified beyond the plausible use as a vehicle (e.g. where someone has cut a car in half to make a trailer is allowable for no road tax, as they don't consider it to be a car anymore). A road going vehicle that is without tax and MOT but is obviously still a car is not allowed on the road whether driven or towed etc..- therefore if the towed vehicle is untaxed you can be fined for that. This is extremely rare but worth noting. Some counties (e.g. Warwickshire) do spot checks on towed vehicles on main routes (e.g. a couple of times a year, pulling EVERYONE with a trailer on M40, and have a portable weigh bridge etc.. they catch out lots of people, and some really are deserving of a slap)
The everyday plod will not always know the rules and not always have instant access to a weigh bridge. A minor saloon with engine/gearbox removed may well be within the rules if it's still taxed - however anything like a bald tyre or corroded structure/bodywork and you're not legal. If towing a small classic with a big tow vehicle, it looks much less suspicious!
I've seen a family saloon towing a megane scenic on A-frame on M6 at 70mph - they were asking to be pulled over!!
Towing a vehicle with same weight as tow vehicle? surely not??
(this wasn't me!) but I don't have to imagine how well that kind of combination would drive!
A-framing a vehicle that's over 750kg..
Is allowed for emergency recovery (e.g. to nearest safe place such as next motorway exit only)
and can be allowed for other journeys if the towed vehicle meets trailer regs AND vehicle road regs (tax / MOT).
If you wanted to tow a road legal Minor on a semi-regular basis you could consider a braked A-frame and add a pedal actuator (special mountings etc..) to the car. The latest construction and use regs for trailers specify certain things about the brakes (all wheels braked and leading shoe only) and trailer ID plate requirements etc... The Minor rear brakes won't meet the new construction rules, however what rules apply to a 1960's car-used-as-a-trailer?? The previous ( a long time ago) rules allowed for a manual reverse lock - if you were a determined person that may well be a viable solution.
Also worth noting... Any 'trailer' over 4ft wide needs a fog light. When I was using my SII landy as a tow vehicle this was an annoying rule as the tow vehicle didn't have a fog light
Everyone* (every individual) I've seen using an A-frame is using a standard trailer board - i.e. no fog light.
* I've seen AA/RAC using A-frame but didn't remember to take a close look at their trailer board (i.e. I'm not a complete obsesssive.. honest!)
Back to the OP's intention to reduce wear and tear on a Minor for longer journeys - To buy/hire/share-club a decent auto trailer would be the best thing I can recommend.
Using an A-frame is going to put significant wear and tear on the Minor front suspension - i.e. as a one off it's less of an issue, but repeated use on a really good minor is a bad idea.
Before I had my A-frame I was using a lightweight auto trailer (it had to be light as I stored it on it's side to save space) - but due to being light it wasn't useful for anything more than a Minor. Prior to that I was in a mates-club with a partial share in a big auto trailer, and one of the mates-club had space to store it - the big trailer needed a serious (i.e. safe) tow vehicle, which was an issue for me at that time.
When towing - many get away with using a van / small truck as tow vehicle but forget to consider if it has enough weight on the rear axle to cope with extreme situations. A good 4x4 should have decent rear axle weight which can keep the rear wheels gripped to the road if things get hairy. When towing with a truck I've had the heavy trailer push the rear of the truck sideways and overtake me. I was lucky to get way with just a broken mirror and knew a lot more about rear axle weight after that. Ohers are not so, lucky to get away with hairy moments
DVLA will not class the towed vehicle as a trailer as far as road tax rules are concerned unless it has been modified beyond the plausible use as a vehicle (e.g. where someone has cut a car in half to make a trailer is allowable for no road tax, as they don't consider it to be a car anymore). A road going vehicle that is without tax and MOT but is obviously still a car is not allowed on the road whether driven or towed etc..- therefore if the towed vehicle is untaxed you can be fined for that. This is extremely rare but worth noting. Some counties (e.g. Warwickshire) do spot checks on towed vehicles on main routes (e.g. a couple of times a year, pulling EVERYONE with a trailer on M40, and have a portable weigh bridge etc.. they catch out lots of people, and some really are deserving of a slap)
When towing an 'unbraked trailer' under 750kg you also need to consider the tow vehicle.A-Frame cannot be towed without "trailer brakes". I cannot think of a practical way of modifying a Minor to enable it to have compliant brakes,
The everyday plod will not always know the rules and not always have instant access to a weigh bridge. A minor saloon with engine/gearbox removed may well be within the rules if it's still taxed - however anything like a bald tyre or corroded structure/bodywork and you're not legal. If towing a small classic with a big tow vehicle, it looks much less suspicious!
I've seen a family saloon towing a megane scenic on A-frame on M6 at 70mph - they were asking to be pulled over!!
Towing a vehicle with same weight as tow vehicle? surely not??
(this wasn't me!) but I don't have to imagine how well that kind of combination would drive!
A-framing a vehicle that's over 750kg..
Is allowed for emergency recovery (e.g. to nearest safe place such as next motorway exit only)
and can be allowed for other journeys if the towed vehicle meets trailer regs AND vehicle road regs (tax / MOT).
If you wanted to tow a road legal Minor on a semi-regular basis you could consider a braked A-frame and add a pedal actuator (special mountings etc..) to the car. The latest construction and use regs for trailers specify certain things about the brakes (all wheels braked and leading shoe only) and trailer ID plate requirements etc... The Minor rear brakes won't meet the new construction rules, however what rules apply to a 1960's car-used-as-a-trailer?? The previous ( a long time ago) rules allowed for a manual reverse lock - if you were a determined person that may well be a viable solution.
Also worth noting... Any 'trailer' over 4ft wide needs a fog light. When I was using my SII landy as a tow vehicle this was an annoying rule as the tow vehicle didn't have a fog light
Everyone* (every individual) I've seen using an A-frame is using a standard trailer board - i.e. no fog light.
* I've seen AA/RAC using A-frame but didn't remember to take a close look at their trailer board (i.e. I'm not a complete obsesssive.. honest!)
Back to the OP's intention to reduce wear and tear on a Minor for longer journeys - To buy/hire/share-club a decent auto trailer would be the best thing I can recommend.
Using an A-frame is going to put significant wear and tear on the Minor front suspension - i.e. as a one off it's less of an issue, but repeated use on a really good minor is a bad idea.
Before I had my A-frame I was using a lightweight auto trailer (it had to be light as I stored it on it's side to save space) - but due to being light it wasn't useful for anything more than a Minor. Prior to that I was in a mates-club with a partial share in a big auto trailer, and one of the mates-club had space to store it - the big trailer needed a serious (i.e. safe) tow vehicle, which was an issue for me at that time.
When towing - many get away with using a van / small truck as tow vehicle but forget to consider if it has enough weight on the rear axle to cope with extreme situations. A good 4x4 should have decent rear axle weight which can keep the rear wheels gripped to the road if things get hairy. When towing with a truck I've had the heavy trailer push the rear of the truck sideways and overtake me. I was lucky to get way with just a broken mirror and knew a lot more about rear axle weight after that. Ohers are not so, lucky to get away with hairy moments
Ray. MMOC#47368. Forum moderator.
Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block
Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block
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southerly95
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Re: A Frame
Many thanks for the interesting and varied replies. So the A frame and dolly are out so beginning to think I could adapt my twin axle boat trailer (1.5 ton 6m sailer) to take the Minor. It has braking already to the forward axle and could be adapted so both axles are braked - i will check overall length. Anyone tried this or is it equally bonkers 
Cheers, John
Cheers, John
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philthehill
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Re: A Frame
Reference should also be made to The Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) Regulations. Basically they set out the requirement that towed trailers/loads (mass) should not exceed the weight (mass) of the towing vehicle. If the trailer/load (mass) is greater than the mass of the towing vehicle kinetic energy will come into force when braking and push the towing vehicle reducing the towing vehicles braking efficiency. I believe that the reccomended trailer/load mass ratio is no greater than 75% of the mass of the towing vehicle. I used to tow my competition Morris on my car transporting trailer (made by Brian James so fully EU compliant) with my Citreon BX estate all over the country without problem but when the MAM regulations came into force I decided to change the BX for a Landrover to ensure that I did not fall foul of the MAM regulations.
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trevor groves
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Re: A Frame
Hi All
One last point on this subject,please stay out of the third lane/ or forth lane on Motorways.
Your lighting board,or trailor,should be showing the correct number plate,ie same as the tow vehicle.
And carry a good spare wheel for your trailor,just in case.
Towing and being towed,is an art,and for the new kids on the block,does your Driving Licence allow you to do it?
Please check your categories
regards
Trevor
One last point on this subject,please stay out of the third lane/ or forth lane on Motorways.
Your lighting board,or trailor,should be showing the correct number plate,ie same as the tow vehicle.
And carry a good spare wheel for your trailor,just in case.
Towing and being towed,is an art,and for the new kids on the block,does your Driving Licence allow you to do it?
Please check your categories
regards
Trevor
Re: A Frame
Well, this has been a most interesting,and informing, thread. I drive on our Motorways, with my petrol tanker, every day. Fully laden and operating at 44 Tons. The unit and Tanker has everything going for it, so much safety built into the combination, but I still need to treat both with respect. I've never really been totally happy, towing anything with my Peugeout 406. I have made every effort to always make sure I'm within the Law's rules, when towing. Things coming adrift on the motorway, are like a loose cannon ball. You often see heavy equipment being towed (tarmac rollers etc ) behind small tippers, on trailers that may have been up to the job when new. But, with a bit of age and abuse, are a danger on our roads. I wouldn't notice many of them, if the drivers style of driving was a bit more professional, ie, driving with more regard with what they are towing in mind. Could more driver training be the answer ? I was hoping to tow one of my vans to Cornbury Park, but I'm a little put off with all the rules, which are there for all of ours safety in mind. Good rules ! So I may just have to suffer for a few more hours, just to be safe. Not really a problem, I've always said.. " to drive em, is to enjoy em " Should I break down I'm a member of the AA ! It's always the middle lane for me, when I spot a breakdown patrol on the hard shoulder,a terrible and dangerous place to work ! Too many rules I think, are making things a liitle confusing, and unclear.
Hoping to rub shoulders with many of you at Cornbury !
I'm a member of the AA ! It's always the middle lane for me, when I spot a breakdown patrol on the hard shoulder,a terrible and dangerous place to work ! Too many rules I think, are making things a liitle confusing, and unclear.Hoping to rub shoulders with many of you at Cornbury !
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Matt
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Re: A Frame
Sorry, but that is not correct.philthehill wrote:Reference should also be made to The Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) Regulations. Basically they set out the requirement that towed trailers/loads (mass) should not exceed the weight (mass) of the towing vehicle. If the trailer/load (mass) is greater than the mass of the towing vehicle kinetic energy will come into force when braking and push the towing vehicle reducing the towing vehicles braking efficiency. I believe that the reccomended trailer/load mass ratio is no greater than 75% of the mass of the towing vehicle. I used to tow my competition Morris on my car transporting trailer (made by Brian James so fully EU compliant) with my Citreon BX estate all over the country without problem but when the MAM regulations came into force I decided to change the BX for a Landrover to ensure that I did not fall foul of the MAM regulations.
Legally there are no specific regulations stopping you towing a trailer weighing more than the prime mover, however, it is considered very bad practice and should not be done. If there is a problem you may be charged with an offense such as careless/dangerous driving as your setup is considered unsafe.
Most modern (2000ish onwards) cars & light commercials (landrovers & big 4x4s excluded) have a manufacturer specifed maximum towing weight of less than the unladen weight of the vehicle. This IS legally enforceable.
Serial Morris Minor Owner and Old Vehicle Nutter
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philthehill
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Re: A Frame
Matt
Thank you for your comments but I will stick with my interpretation of the MAM (2003) Regulations as it puts me well on the safe side of the regulatory requirements.
Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) is also refered to as the Maximum Permissible Weight (MPW) or Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW).
Thank you for your comments but I will stick with my interpretation of the MAM (2003) Regulations as it puts me well on the safe side of the regulatory requirements.
Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) is also refered to as the Maximum Permissible Weight (MPW) or Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW).