Disrespecting the 803

[Audrey1955]

A freind of mine the other day stated that the 803 engine on the series 2 is 'useless', to which I had to defend.

Now, I appreciate it is a very slow engine, and it does struggle going up the slightest increase in gradient, but it is far from useless. Around town, it is perfectly adequate, and can comfortably do urbans speeds, 30, 40 mph.

The main reason for such low opinion is people I believe have had experience with a badly maintained 803, and one that is not properly tuned. Properly tuned, and maintained, I think it is characterful little engine.

With fewer and fewer 803s around now, I just wanted to make my point that it isnt useless

With many being replaced, it would be ashame to see a part of Morris Minor history lost in my opinion.

[brucek]

Mr Javelin - would you care to respond on behalf of the Forum

Long live the 803 I say

[faversham999]

I think the post office used them until 1964

[moggiethouable]

Tell the doubting Thomases that it is fitted with a Weslake designed cylinder head,which it is.
Early Austin engines are stamped with his name and patent number.

[lambrettalad]

thats when the GPO had the idea for the slower second class stamp :wink

[bmcecosse]

It is a useless engine - only the dedicated masochists are happy with it....

[liammonty]

Unfortunately not just gutless, but hopelessly weak bottom end too, not to mention the awful low gearing in the Series IIs... Still, it was a necessary starting point for evolution into the later A-Series engines, and if you don't like driving very far, it's fine!! Even so, it's good that there are still a few original cars out there- just glad I'm not driving mine any more

[customjob]

I'll have to stand by the old 803 having one ourselves, ok it may be slow and under powered, but a 948 or 1098 only gets you there a few minutes earlier. ours cries and whimpers and begs to go the long way round when she sees a mountain or a hillock here in south wales. she's correctly tuned and purrs like a kitten. By the way it's not fitted in the truck in the picture that was a different kettle of fish all together before she died.

[moggiethouable]

Its a little like when the nurse at the well man clinic says "youre overweight"
This is a nonsense of course, you are in fact "underheight"
Similarly the 803 is not underpowered, the car is in fact too heavy.

[mbo145]

I had an A30 with an 803 engine in it still and it was brilliant! The A30 is so much lighter, It is amazing how many series 2 cars still have the original 803 engines that have completed 1,000s of miles!

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Mr. Javelin would indeed care to respond thus:

The 803 is a much maligned and reviled engine. The performance figures are nothing special and the preceding sidevalve engine was stronger - but we must remember that this was 1952 and the change from S.V. to O.H.V. would have been remarkable in such a cheap car.

The top speed is academic. Realistic maximum cruising speed on an 803 fitted with original spec. transmission is 45 MPH. Some have indicated 70 MPH on the speedo but that is pushing to the absolute limit - as my own observations have proved.

The bottom end is very weak, the big-ends being made from white metal and the oil pump and lubrication system not exactly the best in automotive history.

Fuel consumption is poor for the size of the engine and power output. (Or it may just be that my carb has had it).

However, one must remember that these engines are plodders, made before the motorway age and will happily run all day at speeds of 40 MPH. How often does a Minor have the opportunity to exceed this speed for Heaven's sake?

Having just rebuilt my own 803 on 88,000 miles and not needing a rebore, I will be running this engine extensively to see just how long they do last.

Summing up, then, the 803 WILL do its job perfectly well - it just takes slightly longer and does it in a more noisier fashion.

P.S. I will be updating my '803 rebuild progress' thread with the results from the oil restrictor made by Rolf Corbat and supplied by Declan Burns.

[Audrey1955]

Glad to hear some fans of the 803

Long may it live

[brucek]

Bravo Hear Hear

A stout defence of the humble 803, sir!!

As has been noted earlier, the engine was great in the A30, the mistake was to put it in the much heavier Minor for the sake of that favourite of all BMC/BL activity - rationalisation

[bmcecosse]

My main objection to the 803 is the pathetic/weak crankshaft and bearings- which means you can't do anything to increase the power. Fit it with a 948 crank (and con rods) and it will have the ability to take a better camshaft and cylinder head - and should then be potentially able to keep up with traffic and perhaps give the best fuel economy of the range. Of course - the final drive ratio would have to be changed (probably to 4.55) to cut the revs,

[rayofleamington]

Whilst I'm a fan of everything Minoresque, I don't see the 803 as a very good thing.

The Minor MM was exported heavily (and so it should be - it was great). One of the key markets at that time was the USA, and it was outselling the Beetle. The american dealers were screaming for a more powerful engine...
Thanks to the mergers and design by committee the potentially excellent engine being developed by Morris engineers was dropped in favour of the poorly engineered A-series from the Austin camp.

not to mention the awful low gearing in the Series IIs...

The engine was less powerful and less durable. The yucky gearing was introduced to maintain the low speed accelleration figures of the poorly aspirated side-valve (rather than admit the mistake of putting in a less appropriate engine). To allow sensible open road driving they allowed better ratios at the top of the box, leaving the feeling there was a gear missing in between lower and higher gears!
USA sales were shattered when the SII was launched - and so was the Minor's ability to out sell the Beetle worldwide. By comparison the beetle got more engine capacity and then more again, eventually becoming a global icon.

As for the A-series, I would say that without the input of the engineers from Morris, the engine would have been consigned to history 50 years before it was eventually stopped. The best guys from Morris moved onto other projects including the Mini, which created the majority of Austin's success. As for the A-series, With the introduction of a better crank, better bearings, proper oil filtration and a bit more capacity the engine became a gem. Whilst this was one of the factors in the Mini's success it was too late for the Minor in terms of keeping it's truly global appeal.

Within Europe the Minor 1000 sales recovered from the SII problems but exports further afield didn't.

[moggiethouable]

This begs the question why did they fit what was even with an extra 3bhp an "inferior engine"? theoretically or in practice.
The answer lies with Leonard Lord, when he said he would dismantle Morris Motors "brick by brick" after his spectacular falling out with his old employer Lord Nuffield, before the B.M.C. merger, he really meant it.
When given the opportunity to establish in a Morris car, what was to all intents an Austin engine he leapt at the chance.
It didnt matter what engineers thought, some of whom tested and proffered the much more powerful Wolseley unit of the day (a Morris company),they were overruled by petty jealousies and a bitter in house hierarchy.
If a bigger engine, certainly for export, had been fitted at that point,who knows the sales figures that might have been achieved.

[Rustymogg]

Undaunted by all this poor-mans-mog talk of the 803, I shall soon be unleashing mine onto the public roads after 5 years' worth of fettling in my garage!

ps. no chance of the engine coping with a 3.9 diff, then....?!

[ASL642]

Good for you! Don't forget to post some pictures when you get on the road.

[Audrey1955]

Whilst I'm a fan of everything Minoresque, I don't see the 803 as a very good thing.

The Minor MM was exported heavily (and so it should be - it was great). One of the key markets at that time was the USA, and it was outselling the Beetle. The american dealers were screaming for a more powerful engine...
Thanks to the mergers and design by committee the potentially excellent engine being developed by Morris engineers was dropped in favour of the poorly engineered A-series from the Austin camp.

not to mention the awful low gearing in the Series IIs...

The engine was less powerful and less durable. The yucky gearing was introduced to maintain the low speed accelleration figures of the poorly aspirated side-valve (rather than admit the mistake of putting in a less appropriate engine). To allow sensible open road driving they allowed better ratios at the top of the box, leaving the feeling there was a gear missing in between lower and higher gears!
USA sales were shattered when the SII was launched - and so was the Minor's ability to out sell the Beetle worldwide. By comparison the beetle got more engine capacity and then more again, eventually becoming a global icon.

As for the A-series, I would say that without the input of the engineers from Morris, the engine would have been consigned to history 50 years before it was eventually stopped. The best guys from Morris moved onto other projects including the Mini, which created the majority of Austin's success. As for the A-series, With the introduction of a better crank, better bearings, proper oil filtration and a bit more capacity the engine became a gem. Whilst this was one of the factors in the Mini's success it was too late for the Minor in terms of keeping it's truly global appeal.

Within Europe the Minor 1000 sales recovered from the SII problems but exports further afield didn't.

To be fair, it wasnt just the engine as to why the minor wasnt so popular in the USA. Just look at other 50s american cars, and you will see that the Minor, along with nearly every other British/European car was WAYYYYYYYY behind. The Minor didnt even have a radio for heavens sake, whilst its american cousins were already being introduced to electric windows, and air conditoning!

For the American market, the Minor was 20 years too late in my opinion. The 30s Ford model A even had a higher top speed than the series 2 Minor, 20 years before!

I love my series 2 though, but I do understand as to why it wasnt popular in the US.

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

10,000 miles non stop, thats how Morris tried to prove the new engine

Have a look here, they must have been very proud!!!!

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/io-ooo-miles-non-stop