Spigot bearing

[cowboyo]

Hello all, I hope someone can help me with a little problem I'm having (dont worry, its nothing medical ) I am using a lovely Lancia 2.0 with a known history and low milage in my van but I am faced with the usual issues of converting the transverse setup to inline, no probs with most of it as I have my old Fiat engine to take parts from, but I have discovered the inside diameter of the spigot bearing is smaller than the Fiat so I cant mate up the gearbox. I went to Fiat and asked if I could buy one but all I got was derisory laughter and the part number (why do they only sell spares for cars so young they dont need them?) Anyway, does anybody have a correct bearing or know where I can get one?
In addition, any useful advice on removal of said bearing before I try the rod and grease method as described in earlier posts?


Many thanks,

Rob.

[Alec]

Hello Rob,

firstly the rod and grease is as good a method as any, as long as your rod is a snug fit.
Is the bearing solid i.e. a bush or a proper bearing? If the latter once removed , measure your Fiats input shaft and take the bearing and the measurement to a bearing supplier and see if they can provide one of the correct size.
The last option if all else fails is to get a jobbing machinist to make a soild bush out of phosphor bronze.

Alec

[cowboyo]

Thanks Alec, to be honest I have no idea what type the bearing is, it looks solid to me. I will get the calipers on it today and tomorrow I'll go and get a short rod turned down to fit. I'm hoping to get it out undamaged in case I have to get a new one made but I'm not hopeful, its been in there a long time...

[MarkyB]

If it looks solid it probably is, the other type is roller bearing which is pretty obvious.

[bmcecosse]

Or reduce the gearbox input shaft to fit........ How much is the difference?

[moggyman64]

Hi Rob,

You can get the correct spigot/pilot bearing from Ricambio 07501721035 or AE Fiat parts 01403259996

I use both these suppliers for parts for my 2ltr twin cam

regards

keith

[cowboyo]

Thanks for that info Keith, I've been looking far and wide! I'll get on to that straight away. Incidently everyone, the grease and rod technique didnt work, these fellows are in tight. Mind you, I think my rods were a tad too small, the pressure builds up and explodes out around the tiny gap between the bearing and the rod, however, now I know I can get a new bearing I can destroy it during removal

[moggyman64]

Your welcome cowboyo,

The words "I can destroy it during removal" send shivers down my spine, LOL. Be careful because you could damage the seat for the new bearing and then it wont be long before you will be replacing the new bearing again. Remember the old saying " only fools rush in, where others dare thread".

When I replaced my bearing I used the bread trick instead of grease, it is less messy. There is a void behind the bearing and I filled it using bits of dry sliced bread, I think I used about 2 slices. When it is compact I pushed a 3/8 ratchet extension bar into the hole and hit it with a hammer. You will need to fill it back up with bread after each time you hit it. Remember that patience is a virtue.

You can of course use grease but I found using bread easier and cleaner especially when your lying on your back under the car. I would rather have a bread drop on my face than grease.

Before fitting the new bearing, I put it in the freezer for a few hours. Then used a blow torch to heat the end of the crank, while its hot I got the bearing from the freezer ( best get somebody to do the running to the freezer for you) then put a wipe of grease around the edges and it should slide in with just a light tap with a suitable drift. You could probably force the new bearing in without heating/freezing it but that could result in damage and then the new bearing wont last very long.

Regards

Keith

[cowboyo]

Ok Kieth, a timely warning well noted. I'd much rather remove the bearing undamaged anyway, like you I've had spinal shudders at some of the suggestions I've had, including frying it with an industrial laser! (seriously)
Anyway, back in the sane world, I'm going to use my loaf and try the bread suggestion, although it will be mixed with greaseas theres quite a bit of it packed behind the bearing at the moment. If it works I'll certainly save some dough!

[moggyman64]

Rob,

It will work but by the end of it you will have some serious s--- stuck behind the bearing. You can use a 3/8 drive socket bar for bread but with a 3/8 bar the grease escapes and can drive you mad. You may benefit from using a piece of wooden dowel which is slightly smaller in diameter than the centre of the bearing, that way it will allow the bearing to pass over the dowel on the way out. Oh and I like your dry sense of humour, so keep it up..

Did you manage obtain a new bearing from the contacts I gave you?

Regards

keith

[Alec]

Hello Keith,

"Before fitting the new bearing, I put it in the freezer for a few hours. Then used a blow torch to heat the end of the crank, while its hot I got the bearing from the freezer"

That seems rather over the top for a spigot bearing, or do Fiat makes their's with an interference fit. all spigot bearings I've come across are a light drive fit?
Are they solid or a ball race?

Alec

[moggyman64]

Hi Alec,

I have installed 3 of these bearings in the 131 crank, I replace with every new clutch., they are a tight fight you cant just push it in with your fingers.

A drift is required I use a socket with tape on the face of it. I just find it easier to use the heat and freeze method as it applies less stress on new bearings. Of course you can force it in without heat etc but my view is that these bearings are getting harder to find so why would I risk damaging it on installation. One can only pass on advice it doesn't have to be heeded.

Regards

Keith

[cowboyo]

Hey chaps, sorry for the dely but I've finally made headway with my spigot bearing, firstly Keith, I located a new bearing from Ricambio,thanks for the steer, they were the last on my list (no particular reason) and I was starting to think there were none left, however, these guys had all the remaining worlds stock so despite the price I ordered one, then put the phone down and passed out - it was pretty expensive for a bearing!
While I was waiting for the new bearing to arrive I decided I to try using some bread as suggested to remove the old bearing, before my credit card bill came in and I could no longer afford to waste a 5p slice of bread it seemed a ridiculous notion but get this - it worked! that bearing came out as sweet as a nut. Flushed with success I tried the same thing on an old 131 engine I had aquired for spares and that one came out almost as easily - if I'd bothered to try the bread method before ordering I could probably have used the old 131 bearing. Ah well, live and learn I suppose. Never underestimate the power of Braces thick slice!
I've had to move the engine aside today to work on my daughters Micra but as soon as I can I'll press the new bearing in and move on to the next issue, which I believe is the problem of oil overfilling one of the cam boxes due to the 20 degree tilt on the Lancia engines.

[moggyman64]

Hi Cowboyo,

I am pleased the bread worked for you, I cant remember where I learned that trick but it begs the question of, who was the first person to look at the problem of removing a spigot bearing and had the idea "i'l just stuff it with bread".

Pleased you got the replacement bearing although you think it was expensive, I think I have paid about £25 for mine, how much did you have to pay? You can also get them from America but by the time you pay for shipping it would probably end up the same and it can take 3-4 weeks to arrive, plus they usually have a minimum order. If you need any other parts that are hard to find then check/google out the following in the US
International Auto Parts
Vicks Auto Parts
Midwest Bayliss Parts

I note that you say that you have an old engine for parts, I have been trying for a while to find an oil filter mounting part the piece that the filter screws on to, so if you have a spare one that you dont need I would happily buy it from you. I need one for a 2 ltr but not sure if they are same as 1.6 and 1.8. Anyway just a thought.

Regards

Keith

[cowboyo]

Hi Keith, I ended up paying £41 all told for the bearing, I think it was the fact that Fiat originally quoted me £18 (if they had one) that got me thinking it would be along those lines so over twice that was a bit of a jolt, anyway, it does'nt matter now, I'm moving the job on and thats what counts.

The old engine I had is pretty stripped and I'm afraid there is no oil filter mounting block on it, however, I know I did have one where the oil filter was positioned horizontally - ie facing back toward the gearbox not pointing vertically down. If I can find it (and its a big if) would that be of use to you? Let me know and I'll start the search.

Thanks again to all of you.

[dp]

Surely all bearings can be described with a number of parameters and searched for in a bearing catalogue? Eg External and internal diameters, depth, bearing type and seals if any?

[moggyman64]

Hi Cowboyo,

Yeah £41 sounds a bit steep alright, Problem is that when you go to these suppliers for original parts they know that they have you by the short and curleys. As i said earlier you can get all the parts from America and probably cheaper if your not in a hurry. If you had a list of parts then it may save you money in the long run as one off parts can be expensive for shipping etc. I have also found a place near Spalding in Lincolnshire called Town & County. They are an engineering company and I spoke to them a few days ago and they reckon that the should be able to provide a match for any bearing, so keep them in mind for future.

With regards to the oil filter housing, I am using a horizontal one from an Alfa but I am not sure from what size engine, but I would imagine that they are all the same size and just use different size filters for the different applications. Maybe somebody on here can confirm that the 1600 and 2000 mounts are actually the same. The reason I asked is because of the way my engine mount is and the fact that the oil filter is mounted in the horizontal position I used a slightly smaller diameter filter to make changing the filter easier, but I have seen an engine on a similar forum that had the original oil filter housing fitted inverted and thats what gave me the idea to ask you. Do you know what engine your horizontal mount is from?

Regards

Keith

[charlie_morris_minor]

have you tried simply bearings?

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/

[cowboyo]

Hi Kieth, I'm not sure of the mountings origin but it was fitted to a 2.0L autograss racer (a Sunbeam I think) and the good news is I've finally found it. As usual it came to light when I was looking for something else, in a place I never thought it would be.
I'm a bit behind with everything at the mo as I've injured my back, let me know if you want a photo and I'll get one for you although with all the snow it might be a day or two before I can get down to the garage.

Cheers,
Rob.

[moggyman64]

Hi Rob,

A couple of photo's would be great.

regards

keith