Subaru engine conversion?

[Bazzalucas]

I was just wondering: since the Minor was originally intended to have a flat-four, water cooled engine, does anyone know if a Suby motor has been adapted for a Minor?

[Jefftav]

In Classic Monthly http://www.classicsmonthly.com/
there is a van with a flat4 conversion but I think it's an alfa engine(1.5) but it seemed fairly straight forward.

[irmscher]

Tey used to put the Subaru engine in beach buggys years ago and i think they tried one on a rodding forum in a minor but havent heard about it since

[beelzibus]

In the VW scene Subaru conversions are not uncommon. I run an EJ25 Quad cam 160bhp 2.5 in the back of my own van, excellent engines, bags of power and torque, they're a natural in the late watercooled T3 vans. In a Morris Minor I'd have thought a 130bhp EJ20 would be more than enough power without major suspension and braking mods. We use the engine management system including ECU from the donor vehicle as well, complete with transponder key security, fault code lamp with flash codes, and OBD on the later donors.

[dp]

Are there any adaptor plates for fitting RWD gearboxes onto these engines, I heard that the 4wd gearbox wasn't suitable for 2wd?

[beelzibus]

Are there any adaptor plates for fitting RWD gearboxes onto these engines, I heard that the 4wd gearbox wasn't suitable for 2wd?

Well we use our existing VW transaxles with either new specially cast bellhousings on the bus boxes (they have a bolt on bellhousing) or an adapter plate when fitted in a vehicle that uses a Beetle type box without a removable bellhousing.
Depending on the dimension between the front of the engine bay and the axle centreline it might be possible to shoehorn in a Beetle gearbox with the diff flipped. This would result in front wheel drive with the box behind the engine. Of course you'd have to think about driveshafts and front hubs etc, it would be a major project, but not impossible. The other option which would be easier is to turn the 4WD subaru box into a 2WD, but I'm not sure how easy this is to do. I've seen people loose the propshaft, but not keep the propshaft and loose the driveshafts.

[Roni]

I saw a drifting competition once where there was Subaru that had been converted to rear wheel drive only. I don't know how it was done but I'm sure the info is out there on the web somewhere.

[Ned Ludd]

I've just joined this forum specifically to reply to this, as I've put quite a bit of research into this swop. It seems a natural, as both the Subaru and Alfasud engines are roughly the shape of the Minor engine compartment and a useful margin smaller all round. There are a few problems, though. The following refers mainly to the Subaru EJ series, though the 'Sud is surprisingly similar.

The most salient is that the exhaust ports overlap the chassis legs, so one or the other would have to be modified to get the engine to work in the Minor bay. I suppose one could have the legs dog-legging inboard to make room for the exhausts, but it seems an inelegant solution to me. Conflicts with things like oil filters and water elbows might also arise. Another way is summarily to amputate the legs just ahead of the eye bolts, and have them terminate in engine mounts. I believe some versions of the EJ have their mountings in this region, i.e. below and either side of the flywheel, with a third mounting at the back of the transaxle. This approach would mean using the engine as a stressed member, though, and pivoting the lower control arm diagonal struts from brackets under the cylinder heads. It would also mean that the body structure over the clutch etc. become a portal frame and would need reinforcing to suit.

The second problem is that the Minor's A-series or SV sits with its crank lower in the car than a flat-four engine's shape would allow. Installing a flat-four would require raising the crank axis and, consequently, the gearbox and propshaft as well. The distance required is small, but it eats into space that is already quite scarce. The steering rack and the clutch are competing for the same place. And if that isn't enough ...

The third problem is that the Subaru's starter motor projects behind the engine, at the top left. No matter how much you shift things around, you've still got the steering rack running straight through the middle of the starter motor. One or the other would have to go elsewhere. There is a recess in the block for the starter pinion, so it seems unlikely that one could move the starter to another position on the circumference of the flywheel. This guy makes a bellhousing to marry a Toyota W-series gearbox to a Subaru EJ engine. You can see that it retains the starter motor position:


I don't mean to suggest that this should not be attempted, but these are the obstacles involved. I haven't given up yet! But the solution might require a bit more creativity than at first it might appear.

For instance, what about turning the engine back to front, with a Mini-style backwards clutch driving a gear train and a shaft through the sump? That would place the gearbox a good 75-100mm lower than the crank, open up space under the heads for the exhausts to do a bend, and take the starter motor away from the steering rack - and straight through the middle of the radiator! So there's still some unscratched scalp there.

Another option is the Volkswagen Wasserboxer, as found in the last rear-engined Microbuses and Transporters. With its fore-and-aft exhaust ports it solves that problem, but with its pushrods and unexciting porting it's a far less sexy engine than the Subaru. Some also say the cooling system is a bit dodgy, but apparently that's sortable. And as it's the most robust iteration of the VW flat-four concept, some of them have been got to produce quite respectable power. Then, I think it also has its starter sticking out over the clutch.

The Subaru just makes more sense, even if it has a pair of SUs on it and a Ford CVH distributor on the back of the RH head, as is my plan.

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Fit a Jowett engine.

[Ned Ludd]

Fit a Jowett engine.

Like I could pick one up at any local breakers! The VW is the closest in spec and character, but 400-600cc bigger.

[Beardyjon]

having done the rellativly simple task (choughs under breath) of fitting a ej20 into an alfa 33 p4 these conversions are never simple or for the faint hearted!! yes our alfaru works (moted and log booked for stage rally) but it basically ended up with a complete drive train swap! then add the woes of turbo charging (its rude to have an engine like this and not....) but anything IS possable i think SAAB did the reverse engine thing with the turbo if memory serves but ....

with the chassis rail problem could you not dry sump the engine and pull the exaust accross this space? if you then add a turbo the poor gas flowing would be offset slightly? if you look at a turbo exaust manifold then you can see the poor flowing they use ( it doesnt stick out below the sump and runs infront to the block to the turbl...) the starter problem just means a bulkhead pocket etc etc?

[IaininTenbury]

The very nicely turned out van that you see around the shows with the Alfa engine has had a section of the front chassis legs replaced with hefty box section turned end on, so it gives an aperture for the exhaust to pass through, whilst still retaining the strength. A clever bit of lateral thinking...

[Ned Ludd]

I couldn't find out how the Alfa powered van was done, except that some who saw it in the metal report that the exhaust system hangs very low. I suspect that it does everything it needs to do below the plane of the bottom of the chassis legs.

The exhaust port/chassis leg thing isn't a case of poor manifold flow: if the engine sits at a realistic height the top of the chassis leg is half an inch or less below the mouth of the port. There is no room for any kind of exhaust manifold, however convoluted; the legs effectively cap the ports. And if you raise the engine to provide some room below the ports the gearbox input shaft begins to encroach on the rack and pinion.

Likewise the starter situation is an issue mainly due to the rack and pinion. A bulkhead pocket won't do the job. But subsequent research reveals that it would be possible to devise a bellhousing that puts the starter in the 5-o'clock or 7-o'clock position.

A solution to the bellhousing/rack and pinion collision might be to "divorce" the gearbox, and mount it somewhere around the centre crossmember. That has a period feel that is quite appropriate to the Minor's character. The key component would be a simple bellhousing/cradle/bearing carrier with the low starter position and a third mounting at the top to mount off the crossmember over the rack and pinion.

Not having the gearbox in the usual position would simplify the exhaust, especially if a turbocharger is contemplated.

[moggiethouable]

I understand the series A engine is quite a reliable option

[moggiethouable]

I was just wondering: since the Minor was originally intended to have a flat-four, water cooled engine, does anyone know if a Suby motor has been adapted for a Minor?

Its interesting to note that Issigonis said of the most popular of flat engined cars (the beetle) and I quote,
"if the public were all very intelligent people you wouldnt sell one volkswagen beetle" which neatly combined his contempt for the beetle and for the general public.

From Issigonis the official biography by Gillian Bardsley.

[Ned Ludd]

Well, it could be said that the Tatra T57 and Steyr 55 were better Beetles than the Beetle, both of them being the right way round.

[Bazzalucas]

"History is written by the victors"

[moggiethouable]

The victors being the Germans in the form of a Mini built by BMW in this case perhaps.

[RobThomas]

This would give a Minor or VW Camper a bit more 'urge'!! 125 bhp at 2300 rpm. A bit bigger than the VW engine, though.

[frame][/frame]

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

What the hell is that???

I find it ironic that a lot of people who drive Volkswagens tend to be Left-wing or hippy types, when it was Hitler's pet project.